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  1. #21
    Certified Sausage Smoker Elfboy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beargryllz View Post
    I believe that they believe they are serving humanity
    You're missing the point though
    The government IS people
    the government is supposed to be these things, but when it transforms into a gigantic, complex bureaucratic mess, it becomes the opposite.
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  2. #22

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    Quote Originally Posted by Elfboy View Post
    interesting, you seem to be interested in the abuse of power. may I ask what in a socialist society would prevent governmental abuse of power when they are able to amass such large amounts of money?

  3. #23
    Certified Sausage Smoker Elfboy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
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  4. #24
    Senior Member Beargryllz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elfboy View Post
    the government is supposed to be these things, but when it transforms into a gigantic, complex bureaucratic mess, it becomes the opposite.
    So clean the mess

    You are probably old enough to vote, and if you aren't you will be someday.

    If there is something the government is doing that you do not agree with

    1. There is a reason that the government is doing what it is doing, and it could be a good reason or a silly mistake, an outdated law, for example
    2. You have a duty, as a citizen, to address this oversight or make your grievance known

  5. #25
    Certified Sausage Smoker Elfboy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beargryllz View Post
    So clean the mess

    You are probably old enough to vote, and if you aren't you will be someday.

    If there is something the government is doing that you do not agree with

    1. There is a reason that the government is doing what it is doing, and it could be a good reason or a silly mistake, an outdated law, for example
    2. You have a duty, as a citizen, to address this oversight or make your grievance known
    - I am old enough to vote, but I'm afraid it's just more complicated than that
    - I don't have a duty to do anything except look after myself and anyone else I wish to

    this ties in nicely with the main topic though. it all has to do with whether you feel a sense of duty, how strong is that sense of duty, what is that sense of duty directed towards and would you ever value a cause more than your own life?
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  6. #26
    Senior Member Beargryllz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elfboy View Post
    - I am old enough to vote, but I'm afraid it's just more complicated than that
    - I don't have a duty to do anything except look after myself and anyone else I wish to

    this ties in nicely with the main topic though. it all has to do with whether you feel a sense of duty, how strong is that sense of duty, what is that sense of duty directed towards and would you ever value a cause more than your own life?
    If you don't participate in a society, do not expect that society to cherish you as a participant

    Your duty is to complain

  7. #27

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    Whether or not you're old enough to vote you're old enough to read and discover that socialism is not synomynous with government, it is not synomynous with bureaucracy or abuse of power either, in fact socialists have written at very considerable length about that, although you wont know that if you've only heard about socialism second hand via those writers who use socialists or socialism as a tag for everything they hate.

    Not to name drop but you could do worse than reading Eric Fromm, if you can get a copy of May Man Prevail, his book about the Cold War and Russian and Chinese communism in contrast to western democratic socialism, you'll be well on your way to finding out the truth of the matter.

    If you'd like to read about how socialists shouldnt support the welfare state then you could read either Irving Howe's book about that or his anthology of socialist writers which contains GDH Cole's essay on the topic (you'll not get the GDH Cole book, its a rare pamphlet now).

    You could be surprised to read any of Orwell's books supporting socialism but I figure most people would, there's a great edition of 1984 which Fromm wrote a socialist afterword to aswell, although I doubt you'll find it you could find it online, I think I saw it once. That's all if you're interested though, most of the time I dont find people are when they post like you did previously, its just an opportunity to "hear themselves speak".

  8. #28

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    Quote Originally Posted by Elfboy View Post
    - I am old enough to vote, but I'm afraid it's just more complicated than that
    - I don't have a duty to do anything except look after myself and anyone else I wish to

    this ties in nicely with the main topic though. it all has to do with whether you feel a sense of duty, how strong is that sense of duty, what is that sense of duty directed towards and would you ever value a cause more than your own life?
    I've been reading about this in relation to Socrates, and also some Stoics, they sort of astound me, just how I feel presently, by how little terror death had for them, it is unavoidable and awaits us all (Fromm stated that he thought human beings were the only animal whose existence was a problem for it and if I'm not wrong Tillich wrote a book about having the courage to be) but it can still be terrifying and something you would wish to postpone indefinitely if possible.

    Although I found out today that some versions of events suggest Socrates was in his mid or late forties, so about ten or more years older than me, which would perhaps have been old age in his day, it still seems courageous what he did, I confess I would have tried to escape my fate if I were him.

    The accounts of Stoics suggesting as they were marched off to execution or to await execution that they got the last word contra whatever tyrant was arguing with them or told their fellows not to fear for them because they planned to discover whether or not there was an afterlife are incredible to me, perhaps they happened, perhaps it was naivety as much as courage.

    The fact of death perhaps makes for thinking about what sort of death, the idea of a good death contra a terrible or bad one, however I do think that in contrast no one should pursue martyrdom, it is better to live as an example or in hope in an imperfect, and necessarily so, reality than sacrifice yourself, possible others in the process, to the perfect vision or cause. To me that is some how idolatrous. I am a theist and believe that if God can tolerate imperfection then so should we but there are secular versions of this, steering a course between idealpolitik and realpolitik for instance.

  9. #29
    Certified Sausage Smoker Elfboy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beargryllz View Post
    If you don't participate in a society, do not expect that society to cherish you as a participant

    Your duty is to complain
    society owes me nothing. I simply ask that it stay out of my way
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  10. #30
    libtard SJW chickpea's Avatar
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    if the cause was important enough to me, and i thought me dying would make a difference, sure.

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