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  1. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    Do you mean the practice is simply included among the orthodox beliefs within the system, or does it encompass and taint EVERYTHING in the system?

    And are there different interpretations of Jihad and its role in the faith, just as within Christianity there are different opinions on particular doctrines?
    It depends who you ask. If you ask the violent part of Islamism, they will tell you quite openly that Jihad mean Holy War - it means Holy War against the Infidel and the apostate.

    While if you ask the lawful part of Islamism, they will tell you Jihad means Holy War, but only against one's base desires.

    So in part it depends on what you want to believe.

    But perhaps it is more important to look at the aims and methods of Islamism.

    And make up your own mind.

  2. #12
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    Hi,
    Im sorry I forgot to post the question, due to some editing error. My question was if any of you have been exposed to sufism, and what are your thoughts?


    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    I'd like to ask questions... but am not even sure what to ask.

    How about this: As a Sufi, what would you most want a Christian (conservative in some ways) to know about what you believe? What are differences you are aware of, if any? Points of contrast? Points of connection?

    (For example, monotheism: You don't have a trinity like most of the Christian church believes in, even if the "god/father" figure overlaps.)
    Hi Jennifer,
    I will answer your questions, but in another thread, about the similarities and differences between Christianity and Islam. That should also cover trinity.

    Quote Originally Posted by Butterfly View Post
    Hi Hide-n-Seek,

    I just wanted to know where does sufism fit into the mainstream islam? if you dont mind me asking.
    Thanks
    Sufism is in the mainstream islam. Yes. Islam is made up of 3 main bodies: The dogma/beliefs; the law or jurisprudence (shariah); and the spiritual side (sufism). The sufism part is much neglected nowadays by many, and they think it is separate from islam.
    Sufism was part of mainstream islam and it still is; however there has been a rise in wahabism/salafism who tend to be more on the extreme end of the spectrum. This has caused some problems with the image of islam and muslims in general. Many muslims have slided away from sufism as a result of wahabi brainwashing. Some eg of wahabis are Abu Hamza- the extremist preacher in UK. They are anti sufi. Nontheless wahabis are still muslim, but more on the extreme end of the scale.

    Quote Originally Posted by Victor View Post
    And Sufis have a long history of terrorism.
    But the ideal and the reality of Sufism are quite different.
    .
    Hi Victor,
    Can you please give examples of your claim?? How is the ideal and the reality of sufism different?

    Quote Originally Posted by anii View Post
    I'm sorry, I don't know much about Sufism. I do know that I'm drawn to mysticism in spirituality, and I love the poems of Rumi. Aside from that, I'd love to know more.

    PS - I love the imagery of whirling dirvishes.
    Yes Anii, They are beautiful imagery Mind you, Rumi is the most sold out poet in the USA. He talks about love- esp Divine Love.
    Here is a link if youre interested.
    A tribute to Rumi - @ RumiOnFire.com

  3. #13
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    This is to answer the questions about sufism and Jihad being inherent in the system or not.

    Sufism and where is stands within Islam:
    Islam is made up of 4 components:

    • Aqaaid - (Scholastic Theology/Dogma/Fundamental Beliefs)
    • Fiqh (Jurisprudence/Legal matters/External law/dealings)
    • Akhlaaq (Spirituality/Sufism/purification of the self/ self rectification)
    • Ibadaath (Worships)


    If you imagine a pie chart of Islam, then:
    - Aqeedah (Beliefs) would make up about 2% of the Islam. Though its only 2%, it is a VERY important component, since if the Belief system is wrong, it can lead one away from islam.
    - Jurisprudence would make up about 60% of the total Islam. It covers laws, e.g. Marriage, divorce, business dealings, international law, crime and punishment, inheritance and so on. It’s the letter of the law.
    - Sufism covers about 23% of the total pie chart. This is the spiritual aspect of Islam that deals with self rectification and purifying our hearts. It’s the spirit of the law. It’s also called Ihsaan and Tasawwuf or Sufism. It is worshipping God as if you see Him, surely if you don’t see Him, He sees you.
    - Worship covers the remaining 15% of the total.

    The concept of Worship in Islam is that anything that a person does for the pleasure of God is considered as worship. Example if a person is working and earning his money in a legit (halal)way then that work is also considered as worship. Looking after your family is worship, kind words to someone is worship, even picking up a thorn from the road so it doesn’t hurt others is considered worship if the intention is to please God and care for His creation. So following the commands of God with the intention to please Him and to be obedient to Him is worship. Following any laws of Shariah (Divine Law) is worship, weather it be marriage, business, divorce, charity, prayers etc etc.

    So that covers the side of how Sufism fits into Islam.

    JIHAD:

    Ok what about Jihad. The word Jihad actually means 'to struggle'. There is no word in the quran that translates as 'Holy War'.!!
    So the struggle can be internal: with ones lower desires and lower self so one reaches purification. eg one tries to get rid of arrogance, pride, envy, hatred etc etc. This is what the sufis focus on.
    The struggle can also be external in forms of self defense and military type. There are strict rules and conditions on it. Jihad is part of Islam. But in NO WAY does it equate to terrorism!!! Terrorism is WRONG! Its Unislamic! Islam doesnt allow killing innocent people.
    As for Jihad, since I don't know much about it, I will post a link that may answer the questions. It is an audio file. Plus that site contains other useful information.
    Here it is:
    Shaykh Nuh Keller - Home Page

    I hope that at least covers a bit of the inquiries?

  4. #14
    Gotta catch you all! Blackmail!'s Avatar
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    I fear I have to agree with Victor on this one. Don't be gullible!


    Quote Originally Posted by Hide-n-Seek View Post
    JIHAD:

    Ok what about Jihad. The word Jihad actually means 'to struggle'. There is no word in the quran that translates as 'Holy War'.!!
    So the struggle can be internal: with ones lower desires and lower self so one reaches purification. eg one tries to get rid of arrogance, pride, envy, hatred etc etc. This is what the sufis focus on.
    The struggle can also be external in forms of self defense and military type. There are strict rules and conditions on it. Jihad is part of Islam. But in NO WAY does it equate to terrorism!!! Terrorism is WRONG! Its Unislamic! Islam doesnt allow killing innocent people.

    You said "self defense and military"...
    Well, if you listen what Al-Qaida leaders say, they will explain that the Western world is attacking the muslim world, that they are only trying to defend (and hence, it justifies terrorism). They will also pretend, for instance, that Israelis can't be innocent, civilian victimes, since most of them (males and females alike) will do a long military service. Et caetera...

    So here is the trick. You lure people with nice words, and dissimulate what they really mean, how they really are interpreted.
    This process is called Taqiyya, and is rather common when a true muslim must speak in front of gullible unbelievers.

    Islam is the only abrahamic religion that allows to lie to the infidels, if "higher purposes require it" (such as converting them).
    "A man who only drinks water has a secret to hide from his fellow-men" -Baudelaire

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  5. #15
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    Default Violence and Deception in the Name of Allah

    Quote Originally Posted by Blackmail! View Post
    I fear I have to agree with Victor on this one. Don't be gullible!

    You said "self defense and military"...
    Well, if you listen what Al-Qaida leaders say, they will explain that the Western world is attacking the muslim world, that they are only trying to defend (and hence, it justifies terrorism). They will also pretend, for instance, that Israelis can't be innocent, civilian victimes, since most of them (males and females alike) will do a long military service. Et caetera...

    So here is the trick. You lure people with nice words, and dissimulate what they really mean, how they really are interpreted.
    This process is called Taqiyya, and is rather common when a true muslim must speak in front of gullible unbelievers.

    Islam is the only abrahamic religion that allows to lie to the infidels, if "higher purposes require it" (such as converting them).
    I am shocked, shocked I tell you, to find that Blackmail agrees with me.

    But he is quite right, the Koran teaches a strategy for attacking infidels.

    And that is to use violence where you have the power to do so but to use propaganda and deception where you lack the power.

    Yes, the Koran teaches muslims to deceive us and they do. After all, the Koran is the direct voice of Allah.

    The bigger danger to us is not the violence but the propaganda.

    So for self protection it is a good idea to learn what propaganda is, what its limitations are and how it is most effective.

    The New Age religion, of which MBTI is part, cultivates a light but pleasant trance where the critical faculties tend to go asleep and so we become vulnerable.

    And Islamism is here to take advantage of that vulnerability.

    I personally regard this as a tragedy as it seems to me that vulnerability is necessary for creativity.

    So to abuse our vulnerability to advance the interests of a violent, political religion is a real tragedy.

    Victor.

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  7. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blackmail! View Post
    I fear I have to agree with Victor on this one. Don't be gullible!




    You said "self defense and military"...
    Well, if you listen what Al-Qaida leaders say, they will explain that the Western world is attacking the muslim world, that they are only trying to defend (and hence, it justifies terrorism). They will also pretend, for instance, that Israelis can't be innocent, civilian victimes, since most of them (males and females alike) will do a long military service. Et caetera...

    So here is the trick. You lure people with nice words, and dissimulate what they really mean, how they really are interpreted.
    This process is called Taqiyya, and is rather common when a true muslim must speak in front of gullible unbelievers.

    Islam is the only abrahamic religion that allows to lie to the infidels, if "higher purposes require it" (such as converting them).
    AlQaeda is NOT representative of the 1.3 billion muslims, nor the mainstream islam.
    As for converting people, that is not the aim. Since "There is no compulsion in religion" Quran 2:256. One cannot force another person to accept islam.
    Plus it makes no difference to the muslim if the other person accepts islam or not, since everyone is responsible for his/her own choices and its resulting consequences.
    It really makes no difference to muslims or to islam itself. The muslims however do inform others about the knowledge of the Oneness of God, since its their duty to inform others, and also they want to help others realise the truth.
    Islam is Gods religion, it doesn't need membership numbers to survive! Its not a numbers competition as to who gets how many members.

    As for Taqiyya, according to Wiki: The word "al-Taqiyya" literally means: "Concealing or disguising one's beliefs, convictions, ideas, feelings, opinions, and/or strategies at a time of imminent danger, whether now or later in time, to save oneself from physical and/or mental injury."
    Some Sunnis assert that Taqiyya is an act of hypocrisy that serves to conceal the truth. According to them, Taqiyya constitutes a lack of faith and trust in God because the person who conceals his beliefs to spare himself from danger is fearful of humans, when he should be fearful of God only

    Taqiyya - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    So I dont understand how a concept which is considered as hypocritical and reflects lacking faith, could be used as a tool to deceive, because its inherently considered flawed.! ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Victor View Post
    Yes, the Koran teaches muslims to deceive us and they do. After all, the Koran is the direct voice of Allah.

    And Islamism is here to take advantage of that vulnerability.

    Victor.
    Hi Victor,
    Can you please give evidence to support your claim? How does the quran tell muslims to deceive?
    What vulnerability are you talking about? And how is islam trying to take 'advantage' of that??
    Thanks

  8. #18
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blackmail! View Post
    ...Islam is the only abrahamic religion that allows to lie to the infidels, if "higher purposes require it" (such as converting them).
    Oh, that's not true.

    The Jewish Bible (i.e., the Christian Old Testament) describes MANY stories where Jews -- followers of JHWH -- lied to the enemy in order to destroy them or conquer them, and they were highly revered in JHWH 's eyes and credited as being righteous.

    I mean, I can't even really list all of them, just a few being:
    - Rahab (prostitute in jericho who lied about spies being in her home, Israelites then destroyed the city but rahab was saved)
    - David lied to Philistines about being on their side, then turned on them after he finally won them over.
    - A few other stories about women who singlehandedly seduced/lulled to sleep opposing chieftans, then killed them while they slept.
    - Hagar (?) or was it Tamar (?) pretended to be someone else in order to get her father-in-law to sleep with her, because he would not marry off his sons to her as prescribed by law; she kept his cloak and staff as proof he was the father, and he changed his tune [he had been trying to have everyone kill her due to her "infidelity".]

    I could take another hour, do research, and list many more of them. But you can do it: Go through the OT and you find example after example (within the personal history/stories) of examples where people LIED to the enemy and it was credited as a positive value.

    Islam is not the only monotheistic tradition that encourages lying for good purpose in order to subvert/destroy the "infidels." As long as they do it for "good" (i.e., to further their religion), it's acceptable. And the Ten Commandments only prohibits "bearing false witness" -- i.e., telling a story about someone else's actions that you know isn't true, and possibly in a legal context.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  9. #19
    Luctor et emergo Ezra's Avatar
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    My father is sufi. He converted after he becamed disillusioned with the Church of England, on the basis that the local mob forced him to leave the school he had a headship at, simply because he refused to let a pupil back into the school who didn't deserve to be there. The LEA sat back passively, including the local church, St. Paul's (the school was of the same name), and its clergy. He was depressed for months, probably having a midlife crisis of sorts.

    I've often asked him why he converted; if it's because he believes Mohammed is the "true prophet", or if it's for some other reason. He answered "partly" when I asked if it was because of the exotic nature of sufism, and because of his interest in mysticism in most - if not all - of its forms. He also said part of the reason was because of the said disillusionment with the CoE.

    I once dined with Chico and a big sufi sheikh in the UK. Nice food.

  10. #20
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    Default Fake Anthrax Spores and Islamist Propaganda

    A few days ago I had some powder together with some Islamist propaganda put in my letterbox.

    After testing, the Australian Federal Police told me it was fake anthrax spores in order to intimidate me.

    However they also checked with my neighbours and found fake spores and the same Islamist progaganda in their mailboxes. So they said the fake anthrax and the propaganda were not directed at me personally.

    This was a relief, as I have been writing to this thread and the Islamist propagandist apparently comes from Sydney, which is not far from here. And I have given my name and address on this site. So I would be within reach.

    However I do find it disturbing to have Islamist intimidation reaching to my front door.

    Victor.

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