Victor's thoughts on makeup

[King sns]

(Reads some of thread.)

I feel like we're in a Victor autobiography and bibliography book club.

I see what you're saying though, Victor. But I don't know if that's always the case to the extreme that you are talking about. I haven't read much of the thread, but I wonder if you're talking about consumerism in general.

 

[Thalassa]

Why am I not surprised.

Well, some people just don't understand each other, no matter how long they've been around each other.

Also, while I don't always agree with Victor's methods (I think he has some anger toward women, in general) I see what amerellis is saying. Victor just has Fi morals he feels strongly about, and just last night I posted in another thread, that I very much see how he wants to explore authenticity and intimacy and the things in society which prevent that.

Some people are so put off by Victor's way of expressing himself (the fact that he seems to write poems instead of posts, etc.) that they don't even pay attention to what he's actually consistently doing.

I see both good and bad in his behavior, and I do think he can be attacking because of his personal social anxieties and fears, but on the other hand I see where he wants to reach out to people and get to the authentic, real person underneath, and how he's so intensely driven by his Fi morals.

I'm pretty sure this is also why SimWorld thought Victor was ISFP instead of INFP...Fi/Ni loop...

 

[amerellis]

Ok, on what do you base your assumed greater understanding?

I'm not even claiming I have greater understanding; I was just asking neebykoo to explain how he came to that conclusion as I didn't see how he reliably did. Maybe it was based off bits of past knowlege and nothing specific in this thread because I certainly didn't come to that conclusion.

 

[amerellis]

I think he's the most intelligent poster here. I hope he writes an incredible novel someday...he certainly could. He has an oceanic mind.
But Victor has often made vague/provocative statements, knowing he would be understood. It's part of his rhetorical style.
And if one is determined to throw pearls before swine, to invite misunderstanding and ridicule, what does one hope to gain? That's what I was asking him.

I take it you meant to type misunderstood. (Freudian typo? jk jk)
With that correction however, how can you claim that he intends to be misunderstood? Maybe that is just the way he knows/likes to express himself? I don't consider his style of expression confusing, just provocative as you said.

 

[Qlip]

Some people are so put off by Victor's way of expressing himself (the fact that he seems to write poems instead of posts, etc.) that they don't even pay attention to what he's actually consistently doing.

I see both good and bad in his behavior, and I do think he can be attacking because of his personal social anxieties and fears, but on the other hand I see where he wants to reach out to people and get to the authentic, real person underneath, and how he's so intensely driven by his Fi morals.

I'm pretty sure this is also why SimWorld thought Victor was ISFP instead of INFP...Fi/Ni loop...

What do you feel that he is consistently doing? Is it what you said below.. trying to get the root of people? I have to ask.. sometimes other see things that I don't, sometimes others allude to things as being obscure, when I find them obvious.

I used to do this, think that everybody had this little authentic inner person in them, like [thought] I did and all they needed to do is let it out, remove the veils of thought and obfuscation. Then I learned that people don't operate the same way I do, and assuming that they do and trying to get at it is terribly irritating and invasive.

 

[Thalassa]

What do you feel that he is consistently doing? Is it what you said below.. trying to get the root of people? I have to ask.. sometimes other see things that I don't, sometimes others allude to things as being obscure, when I find them obvious.

I used to do this, think that everybody had this little authentic inner person in them, like [thought] I did and all they needed to do is let it out, remove the veils of thought and obfuscation. Then I learned that people don't operate the same way I do, and assuming that they do and trying to get at it is terribly irritating and invasive.

Yeah, I think he is trying to get to the root of people because he literally says OUTRIGHT in many of his posts that people are distanced from each other or that he wishes for intimacy (since we're all in each others bedrooms with our computers) and he sees things like MBTI and cosmetics and other stuff as obscuring people's true inner selves, and as pretenses we use to keep from sharing our authentic inner selves. Victor says really kind things sometimes, with almost childlike sweetness, and yet he speaks harshly about things that he finds go against his values.

Fi dom values mixed with the Ni need to speak symbolically and to "dig underneath" without proper usage of Se can create an insular inner world that isn't checked against real life, and can even lead to paranoia, or having such an individualistic way of speaking that other people might not understand you well unless they naturally "speak your language."

I've never had a problem understanding Victor's point, ever. It amazes me that some people find him so confusing, and for a while I just thought it was because I majored in literature and was used to analyzing fiction and poetry, but maybe it's because Victor and I share functions.

Trust me, I've been angry at Victor, but it's typically because of his fear of women and his own paranoia that people are out to get him that creates this. That's SAD. The more I think about it, the more that I think it's sad, and by attacking him, you're just confirming what he already thinks he knows; that people are going to reject him.

 

[redcheerio]

It was not unfair or unkind. It was truthful.

Thanks.

HE IS A TROLL. Yes, he just wants attention, because he is a troll. Why on earth else would you jump into a thread with high momentum and enthusiasm and everyone in happy agreement, and throw cold water on it? Why would you do it repeatedly and repeatedly complain that you are being yelled at when you do it? STOP DOING THE THING THAT GETS YOU YELLED AT AND THE YELLING WILL STOP. Victor, who is so fond of quoting the rules to other people about bullying and who threatens to report you if you insult him because that's against the rules and you could be banned ... I cannot believe anybody buys into it.

Oh, he's metaphorical, y'know, that's cool, but the point is, start your own thread, or if you don't want to actually discuss, write a blog. Don't jump into other people's threads and piss on them. And then turn around and cry when they say they don't want to stop what they were enjoying talking about to entertain the subject you now insist out of the clear blue they turn their attention to. Again, who's the bully??

I would guess he's more of a bull in a china shop, than an intentional bully or troll.

Well, some people just don't understand each other, no matter how long they've been around each other.

Also, while I don't always agree with Victor's methods (I think he has some anger toward women, in general) I see what amerellis is saying. Victor just has Fi morals he feels strongly about, and just last night I posted in another thread, that I very much see how he wants to explore authenticity and intimacy and the things in society which prevent that.

Some people are so put off by Victor's way of expressing himself (the fact that he seems to write poems instead of posts, etc.) that they don't even pay attention to what he's actually consistently doing.

I see both good and bad in his behavior, and I do think he can be attacking because of his personal social anxieties and fears, but on the other hand I see where he wants to reach out to people and get to the authentic, real person underneath, and how he's so intensely driven by his Fi morals.

I'm pretty sure this is also why SimWorld thought Victor was ISFP instead of INFP...Fi/Ni loop...

I think you nailed it with the Fi/Ni loop. I was previously thinking Ne-Fi or Fi-Ne with zero Te, but Fi/Ni sounds more like it. His writing does sound primarily Fi, structured like Ni, with no Ti or Te to allow tolerance for disagreement or logical analysis.

And I don't think he is a troll, either. I just wish he would put more effort into discussing his opinions rather than just proclaiming them. However, that is just my limited experience since I'm fairly new here.

[MENTION=8543]Nerd Girl[/MENTION] and @Salome seem to think he is capable of intelligent discussion/ debate, so I'll take their word for it.

 

[Tiltyred]

Well, some people just don't understand each other, no matter how long they've been around each other.

Also, while I don't always agree with Victor's methods (I think he has some anger toward women, in general) I see what amerellis is saying. Victor just has Fi morals he feels strongly about, and just last night I posted in another thread, that I very much see how he wants to explore authenticity and intimacy and the things in society which prevent that.

Some people are so put off by Victor's way of expressing himself (the fact that he seems to write poems instead of posts, etc.) that they don't even pay attention to what he's actually consistently doing.

I see both good and bad in his behavior, and I do think he can be attacking because of his personal social anxieties and fears, but on the other hand I see where he wants to reach out to people and get to the authentic, real person underneath, and how he's so intensely driven by his Fi morals.

I'm pretty sure this is also why SimWorld thought Victor was ISFP instead of INFP...Fi/Ni loop...

It really doesn't take any incredible-fine-bordering-on-psychic powers of discernment to understand his points. I understand that he may have strong feelings about things (although frankly I doubt this; I firmly believe that he is a provocateur, end of story). So I disagree with you entirely about his motives but that's a whole 'nother can of worms. He can write whatever he wants, however he wants to write it.

I just want him to stop derailing other people's threads. And then crying about it when those people react with disapproval.

That's all.

 

[Thalassa]

Yes, I disagree with your assessment of him as a troll. I also have never related to people who get so upset about derailment...however, I never said it takes psychic powers to understand him, and I just said some people don't get it...and most of them don't get it because they either don't want to pay attention or even try to understand. Although some people may be outright incapable for whatever reason.

 

[Stanton Moore]

I take it you meant to type misunderstood. (Freudian typo? jk jk)
With that correction however, how can you claim that he intends to be misunderstood? Maybe that is just the way he knows/likes to express himself? I don't consider his style of expression confusing, just provocative as you said.

Yes, I meant misunderstood. Thanks for pointing that out.
Yes, that is how he likes to express himself, or he would do it another way.
And yes, he is more than aware enough to know he will be misunderstood, if by no other means than the long track record of it happening here.
I agree, if you aren't looking for concrete answers, his style is not confusing. I enjoy it.
And my original question still stands: why invite misunderstanding and ridicule?
Because he want to enlighten.
He spoke of the 'true self' and the 'ideal self'.
ideal self = ego consciousness/vanity/'I': makeup-as-metaphor, cover over true self
true self = soul/humility/'we': no need for makeup, no need to beautify.
I think he is often vague, partially because he enjoys the confusion that ensues. It amuses his ego to be so inscrutable.
The inscrutability is itself a form of makeup/covering. It makes people wonder whether or not they understand something. Clarity allows them to decide if they believe it.

 

[rav3n]

Yes, I meant misunderstood. Thanks for pointing that out.
Yes, that is how he likes to express himself, or he would do it another way.
And yes, he is more than aware enough to know he will be misunderstood, if by no other means than the long track record of it happening here.
I agree, if you aren't looking for concrete answers, his style is not confusing. I enjoy it.
And my original question still stands: why invite misunderstanding and ridicule?
Because he want to enlighten.
He spoke of the 'true self' and the 'ideal self'.
ideal self = ego consciousness/vanity/'I': makeup-as-metaphor, cover over true self
true self = soul/humility/'we': no need for makeup, no need to beautify.
I think he is often vague, partially because he enjoys the confusion that ensues. It amuses his ego to be so inscrutable.
The inscrutability is itself a form of makeup/covering. It makes people wonder whether or not they understand something. Clarity allows them to decide if they believe it.

Good synopsis. It is a form of mental masturbation for him to be ambiguous.

 

[King sns]

Yes, I meant misunderstood. Thanks for pointing that out.
Yes, that is how he likes to express himself, or he would do it another way.
And yes, he is more than aware enough to know he will be misunderstood, if by no other means than the long track record of it happening here.
I agree, if you aren't looking for concrete answers, his style is not confusing. I enjoy it.
And my original question still stands: why invite misunderstanding and ridicule?
Because he want to enlighten.
He spoke of the 'true self' and the 'ideal self'.
ideal self = ego consciousness/vanity/'I': makeup-as-metaphor, cover over true self
true self = soul/humility/'we': no need for makeup, no need to beautify.
I think he is often vague, partially because he enjoys the confusion that ensues. It amuses his ego to be so inscrutable.
The inscrutability is itself a form of makeup/covering. It makes people wonder whether or not they understand something. Clarity allows them to decide if they believe it.

Yeah, I agree. I am inclined to overlook the word makeup and focus more on the word brands. I think that maybe he is talking about "things" like the newest vacuum cleaner or dryer ball or jetski- things that are meant to make you look better but when abused, take you much farther away from your true self and make you guarded, unable to have a good relationship, and unhappy. A coverup to your supposed ugly self, just like makeup.

(For post insurance purposes, I'm not talking about the three items listed above, I'm talking about the Jonses mentality.)

I'm not sure if that's what he meant by makeup, but that's what it made me think about when I read it. Of course, I'm inclined to take all of Victor's posts figuratively out of habit.

 

[Jaguar]

It was not unfair or unkind. It was truthful. HE IS A TROLL. Why would you do it repeatedly and repeatedly complain that you are being yelled at when you do it? Again, who's the bully??

Victor was posting that Carl Jung sexually abused his patients. I got tired of the nonsense and told him to post the evidence. He wouldn't do it, because he couldn't do it.

So rather than say yes, Jag, I'm intentionally posting falsehoods about Jung to annoy you, this is what he posted - his alleged "purpose" for being here at TypeC.

What follows is Victor's comments and ragashree's response:

My purpose here is plain.

My purpose is to create cognitive dissonance.

Jung is held is high regard, so I hold him in disregard.

I am counterposing one emotion, regard, with another emotion, disregard.

I am contrasting one picture of Jung with another picture of Jung. This creates an interference pattern called cognitive dissonance.

I recognise that cognitive dissonance is emotionally painful. And I also recognise that cognitive dissonance is a sign that learning is taking place.

So my plain and oft stated purpose is to create cognitive dissonance to facilitate learning.

Well, Victor, with admissions like that you don't need anyone else to comment on your credibility, do you? Shorn of the obligatory self-justification, which rests entirely on your self-proclaimed assumption of superior wisdom, this is merely to say that you are perpetuating deliberate falsehoods in order to take a contrarian position, in the hope that doing so will upset someone.

This happens to fit most people's definition of trolling rather well, don'cha think?

 

[Thalassa]

I used to write stuff that was intentionally obscure when I was a teenager because I wanted someone to understand ME, like to really get it, and I thought that spelling things out actually took away from the real meaning.

Just consider the option that Victor does this kind of language either because he wants someone to really understand HIM as an individual (he doesn't want to be forced to speak like everyone else) or because he feels like the REAL MEANING would actually be stripped from it if he spoke in plainer language...or both. Those are either Fi, Ni, or Fi/Ni motives, I think.

Fi/Ni loop also explains his insular world.

I remember one time we had to write our own monologues for one of my drama classes, and I wrote some poem and read it as my monologue, and so help me god my drama teacher (not the other students) looked at me in outright confusion and said, "I'm going to be perfectly honest, I didn't understand that." And I was sincerely hoping that someone would have, especially the teacher.

That's kind of how Victor writes, in images and symbols and things which have profound meaning...to him.

But now I'm afraid that by talking about him, he's going to be offended, so now I'll stop.

 

[rav3n]

Yeah, I agree. I am inclined to overlook the word makeup and focus more on the word brands. I think that maybe he is talking about "things" like the newest vacuum cleaner or dryer ball or jetski- things that are meant to make you look better but when abused, take you much farther away from your true self and make you guarded, unable to have a good relationship, and unhappy. A coverup to your supposed ugly self, just like makeup.

(For post insurance purposes, I'm not talking about the three items listed above, I'm talking about the Jonses mentality.)

I'm not sure if that's what he meant by makeup, but that's what it made me think about when I read it. Of course, I'm inclined to take all of Victor's posts figuratively out of habit.

The assumption is that Victor's beliefs are the ultimate in authenticity, whereby authenticity can take many forms and our true selves don't necessarily align with Victor's concept of self-actualisation.

It's not as if we're solely spirit. Human beings are anchored to the earth by our corporal bodies. So why not accept this aspect and mesh spirit with body? I find most spirituality damaging in their concepts of good/evil, right/wrong since they reject the key element of our corporal humanity. They foster hatred towards our corporal needs. Why is this necessary?

 

[Stanton Moore]

I hope V never changes. And I hope he writes that novel/epic poem/treatise. I adore his mythopoetic nature.

 

[Tiltyred]

I'm amazed that people think he's so profound. What did he say, in the end? Women should not wear makeup. And the reasoning is pure 18th century, pretty much borrowed from this piece:

An Act to protect men from being beguiled into marriage by false adornments. All women, of whatever rank, age, profession or degree, whether virgins, maids or widows, that shall, from and after such Act, impose upon, seduce or betray into matrimony, any of His Majesty's subjects, by the scents, paints, cosmetic washes, artificial teeth, false hair, Spanish wool, iron stays, hoops, high-heeled shoes and bolstered hips, shall incur the penalty of the law in force against witchcraft and like misdemeanours and that the marriage upon conviction shall stand null and void.

But because he phrases this in a way that suits your fancy, you think it's fine. Whereas if he said it in plain English, you'd scratch his eyes out.

 

[rav3n]

 

[Thalassa]

I'm amazed that people think he's so profound. What did he say, in the end? Women should not wear makeup. And the reasoning is pure 18th century, pretty much borrowed from this piece:

An Act to protect men from being beguiled into marriage by false adornments. All women, of whatever rank, age, profession or degree, whether virgins, maids or widows, that shall, from and after such Act, impose upon, seduce or betray into matrimony, any of His Majesty's subjects, by the scents, paints, cosmetic washes, artificial teeth, false hair, Spanish wool, iron stays, hoops, high-heeled shoes and bolstered hips, shall incur the penalty of the law in force against witchcraft and like misdemeanours and that the marriage upon conviction shall stand null and void.

But because he phrases this in a way that suits your fancy, you think it's fine. Whereas if he said it in plain English, you'd scratch his eyes out.

I already said multiple times that Victor seems to have fear and/or anger towards women. I knew this one day when he started talking about Sylvia Plath and compared me to her, and from a very strange angle, which made me angry.

However, his point is more than simply women shouldn't wear make-up...all the stuff he said about brands, et al, is exactly what nebbykoo and shortnsweet said...it's all, again, part of his mission for authenticity.

 

[Thalassa]

The assumption is that Victor's beliefs are the ultimate in authenticity, whereby authenticity can take many forms and our true selves don't necessarily align with Victor's concept of self-actualisation.

It's not as if we're solely spirit. Human beings are anchored to the earth by our corporal bodies. So why not accept this aspect and mesh spirit with body? I find most spirituality damaging in their concepts of good/evil, right/wrong since they reject the key element of our corporal humanity. They foster hatred towards our corporal needs. Why is this necessary?

Because he's in an Fi/Ni loop tenaciously rejecting his Se. That's the typology explanation.