Victor's thoughts on makeup

[SilkRoad]

I'm personally enamored with this discussion. I don't even know if we are talking about Victor the person anymore. He's become more of a concept. Could be noun, verb, or adjective too.

"To victor": 1.)To write in controversial metaphorical prose.

Victor is a concept...oh man. I can't stop laughing.

I think "Victored" is already a term on this forum...

 

[Thalassa]

I'm personally enamored with this discussion. I don't even know if we are talking about Victor the person anymore. He's become more of a concept. Could be noun, verb, or adjective too.

"To victor": 1.)To write in controversial metaphorical prose.

I agree.

 

[Stanton Moore]

Only a victor would spot a victor.

Hmm..touche.

 

[redcheerio]

How do you know this?

I don't know, I'm just pulling it out of my ass based on previous discussion about Fi-Ni, and based on this thread which seems to show evidence of rejecting Se in favor of Ni:

I played sport at school but when I left school I discovered other things. In particular I discovered the inner life and everything that goes with it.

But those who love professional sport remain fixated on the games of childhood and they never mature.

And the inner life forever remains a mystery to them. They can't swim in the inner life and fear they might drown.

Sport lovers look good on the outside but inside they are suppurating or desiccated.

So they drown their inner unhappiness in alcohol and increasingly in drugs.

Naturally they deny their own inner unhappiness, and they deny this to one another and to the world.

But professional sport is psychologically damaging to the practitioners and to the fans.

*wonders if you're enamored with your newfound perspective on Victor*

Of course I am, this is fun.

I will feel bad if he ends up offended by it, though....

I'm personally enamored with this discussion. I don't even know if we are talking about Victor the person anymore. He's become more of a concept. Could be noun, verb, or adjective too.

"To victor": 1.)To write in controversial metaphorical prose.

 

[Tiltyred]

Because he's on a mission to make people think about what he's saying, he thinks it's very important to share these ideas, but doesn't actually enjoy direct conflict, he might find it too upsetting. Especially if he feels that he is being personally attacked. Like now.

It's weird because I've seen an INTJ do something along the same lines...basically be a trouble maker and a shit stirrer, but when it comes to personal things being almost cowardly passive/avoidant.

But with Victor I sincerely think he's doing it because he really believes he's speaking truth and is trying to enlighten people, not just to get jollies out of harassing young girls or offending middle-aged ladies.

I also think Victor is much more honest in basically admitting that his feelings are hurt by personal attacks.

So I tend to respect Victor more, although I agree that his methods aren't always good.

Honestly, I think you're completely bamboozled. Bamboozled in every respect, on this issue. I think you like Victor because you're also provocative, so it delights you when he is.

It's so offensive to me to have to patronize and humor people. Advise like "just ignore him" or "he means well" make me foam at the mouth. At some point, content matters! It's like watching somebody with Stockholm syndrome to hear you say how Victor's such a great guy and you respect his morals, when he has zero good to say about women, and he attacks people at their basic levels -- their intellect, he thinks he's smarter than everybody here, and their intentions, he's constantly attributing bad intent ... I just don't get it. I feel like somewhere along the line, you turned your brain off.

 

[ICUP]

Because he's on a mission to make people think about what he's saying, he thinks it's very important to share these ideas, but doesn't actually enjoy direct conflict, he might find it too upsetting. Especially if he feels that he is being personally attacked. Like now.

It's weird because I've seen an INTJ do something along the same lines...basically be a trouble maker and a shit stirrer, but when it comes to personal things being almost cowardly passive/avoidant.

But with Victor I sincerely think he's doing it because he really believes he's speaking truth and is trying to enlighten people, not just to get jollies out of harassing young girls or offending middle-aged ladies.

I also think Victor is much more honest in basically admitting that his feelings are hurt by personal attacks.

So I tend to respect Victor more, although I agree that his methods aren't always good.

So basically, you think that he is so into sharing his ideas, that he will cause other people grief in order to get them across, without reason? Why can't he get his ideas across, without creating chaos, if he doesn't like it, like the rest of us do? Generally, when someone continually breaks the rules and gets banned, that points to a much deeper problem. He's not avoiding direct conflict.... by continually breaking the rules and pissing people off, he's inviting it. Then when people say something about it, he plays the victim. Just because he plays the victim, doesn't necessarily mean that he is upset. If he was so upset about the reactions, he would change, but he doesn't.

Usually, when people are upset, they respond in some way. He ignores heated discussion, and keeps going as if nothing has happened. He appears to be very removed, not upset. What people say and what they do and are, are many times, completely different things.

It seems to me that you want to see good in people, and not what's there. But I think that's also a quality I see in esfp's that makes them very lovable people.

 

[Thalassa]

Oh he ignores heated discussion, that's a trait I wish I had. It's actually quite wise of him.

I don't think his methods are always good, I just don't think his intent is malicious.

People who are removed like that only bother me in a personal context, like the INTJ in question, then it just seems downright fucking nasty and mean to me.

But since I have Fi, I guess, I don't see why anyone would be bothered by Victor being so removed if they don't especially care about him as a person. It's like ...yeah...that guy.

As I admitted before, I have gotten angry at Victor before because of some of the stuff he's said DIRECTLY TO ME. But when I realized later how paranoid or projecting some of it was, it took some of the anger away, and allowed me to see what his probable issues are.

We all have issues. I certainly do.

 

[Tiltyred]

The ideas that he conveys are often ... at the very least, insulting. I started to write "cruel," not sure if that's the right word. I'm not talking about to young girls and middle aged women. I'm talking about, for example, to the people on the sports topic. They have no inner life. They regress to childhood because they ... blah blah are deficient in some way.

-- as long as he doesn't say it to YOU, it's ok. But it's ok if he says it to other people. ?

 

[King sns]

The ideas that he conveys are often ... at the very least, insulting. I started to write "cruel," not sure if that's the right word. I'm not talking about to young girls and middle aged women. I'm talking about, for example, to the people on the sports topic. They have no inner life. They regress to childhood because they ... blah blah are deficient in some way.

Yeah, well, see what I mean about the sillyness? That's just speculation which is outright wrong and not based in reality. Every one reading that knows that it's wrong. It's not even insulting at that level of wrongness. Too me it's like "Oh Victor." It's just one mans odd opinion.

 

[Stanton Moore]

The ideas that he conveys are often ... at the very least, insulting. I started to write "cruel," not sure if that's the right word. I'm not talking about to young girls and middle aged women. I'm talking about, for example, to the people on the sports topic. They have no inner life. They regress to childhood because they ... blah blah are deficient in some way.

-- as long as he doesn't say it to YOU, it's ok. But it's ok if he says it to other people. ?

What sports thread?

 

[iwakar]

Why? The nail polish/makeup thread was accomplishing the purpose it was started for. No one intended to solve any major world issues in that thread, and yet some (yes, intelligent) posters found answers to questions they had about something they use in their daily lives. Talking about nail polish doesn't make one a half-wit. And threads like that are also a way that posters share their experience with other posters, creating good will. I think that's pretty useful.

Victor starts threads about the same two ideas, then refuses to engage people in an honest debate about his ideas. He decides to interpret genuine engagement as bullying, and nothing happens except a discussion about Victor and his methods. People then jump in and defend him, as you are doing, but the defenses always imply that there's some element of genius that the rest of the board is missing. I don't buy it. No one who defends him ever offers any evidence for this supposed genius. There are plenty of reasonable, flexible, intelligent people on the boards that would be willing to listen to Victor's ideas if he were willing to engage beyond his current level. I don't care for his style, it's true, but I could very easily look past it if he were willing to take what others are saying and create an actual dialogue with them, rather than delivering them as a pronouncements that must be swallowed in their entirety. Why is it okay for Victor to assume that every time someone disagrees with him, it must be because they are afraid of controversy or afraid of change? He never provides any evidence for this idea. But we're supposed to see him as some sort of anti-MBTI prophet. I suspect this is probably another Fi vs Fe thing for a lot of people. Why should Victor have to change his tactics to suit all of you, etc. Answer: he doesn't have to, but he can't expect a different result, and loads of people are tired of his schtick, and have every right to be tired of it.

Frankly, I'm not sure why we aren't allowed to be annoyed with Victor's tactics. He's off-limits, where others can be ripped to shreds at will. He's not defenseless or weak, and he is perfectly capable of coming up with a tactic to reach more people with his "message," if that is truly what he desires. But it's not. Perhaps he feels like amending his style of communication renders him inauthentic. That's fine. But it will be received the same way each and every time.

Bingo.



Also, I don't understand why @Salome believes the members discussing cosmetics in the other thread are half-wits. Are you willing to elaborate?

 

[Tiltyred]

The one that Jaguar quoted upthread. Where Victor said some awful things to Halla, which hurts my heart.
http://www.typologycentral.com/forum...=1#post1378822


Shortnsweet, it's still verbal abuse, isn't it? I mean, if I followed you around calling you weird names, is it ok just because the weird names have no connection to you in fact?

 

[Thalassa]

The ideas that he conveys are often ... at the very least, insulting. I started to write "cruel," not sure if that's the right word. I'm not talking about to young girls and middle aged women. I'm talking about, for example, to the people on the sports topic. They have no inner life. They regress to childhood because they ... blah blah are deficient in some way.

-- as long as he doesn't say it to YOU, it's ok. But it's ok if he says it to other people. ?

Victor can say whatever he wants, and who ever wants to disagree with him can.

It's not like he has power to ruin anyone's life, and I do agree with some of the things he says, even while strongly disagreeing with others.

And many of the things I disagree with seem to be a result of his personal issues and belief system, not anything terribly dire.

 

[ICUP]

Oh he ignores heated discussion, that's a trait I wish I had. It's actually quite wise of him.

I don't think his methods are always good, I just don't think his intent is malicious.

I suppose it's hard for me to understand why anyone would choose to continually disrupt, if they aren't in it for some reason, other than good-doing.

People who are removed like that only bother me in a personal context, like the INTJ in question, then it just seems downright fucking nasty and mean to me.

I don't think it bothers me that he's removed. I just don't think he's upset or feels victimized. I just think what he says and the way he acts, are two different things, totally. I go by actions more than words. If someone is acting like a troll, they generally, are, regardless of what they are saying. They fit the definition. I don't see what he says as being things he believes in, but simply a means to an end. He is interested in the attention he receives, whether it be negative or positive. He casts out hooks, and the people he responds to, are fish that bit the hook. He ignores those who don't bite the hook. Of course, it can become more complicated than that (and in his case, it seems to be).... but there's the general idea of what he is up to here. Simple as that.

But since I have Fi, I guess, I don't see why anyone would be bothered by Victor being so removed if they don't especially care about him as a person. It's like ...yeah...that guy.

As I admitted before, I have gotten angry at Victor before because of some of the stuff he's said DIRECTLY TO ME. But when I realized later how paranoid or projecting some of it was, it took some of the anger away, and allowed me to see what his probable issues are.

We all have issues. I certainly do.

 

[King sns]

The one that Jaguar quoted upthread. Where Victor said some awful things to Halla, which hurts my heart.

Shortnsweet, it's still verbal abuse, isn't it? I mean, if I followed you around calling you weird names, is it ok just because the weird names have no connection to you in fact?

Maybe, but the end result is that I let them roll off, but also haven't seen him insult anyone personally- I know that it may be out there, which is why I'm fascinated with some of the reactions- to me, they have to be reactions to something else more personal that must have happened. I wear makeup once in a while myself, and am not a Buddhist Monk, so I buy brands in the amounts that make me comfortable. The personal attack radar went directly over my head in this case, though. I have opinions about a lot of different things that I don't like, as well.

 

[Tiltyred]

Well, he's so sincere, how can you mind what he says and who he says it to? He says what he FEELS and it must be said ...

also true of Hitler ...

Content matters.

 

[King sns]

Well, he's so sincere, how can you mind what he says and who he says it to? He says what he FEELS and it must be said ...

also true of Hitler ...

Content matters.

Well, yeah, but Hitler also wanted everyone to think the same way and offenders to die. I cringe whenever women use the word "hubby" or when baseball players are chewing tobacco and spitting on the field and purposeful misspellings and a whole host of other strange biases. I'm also inclined to think that materialism has potential to lead away from truth and authenticity. Do I welcome and allow people with differing opinions? Yes, absolutely. My values are personalized, not blanket to the entire world. I can't claim to know where Victor is coming from with these topics, but I just see a man stating opinions. So I feel like I missed something completely. Some thread or some other stuff that implied otherwise.

Edit: Oh sorry, I did not see your link there before. Also it says, "page not found."

 

[Tiltyred]

You should speak out more often! Those are great views!

Who is he talking to if not to the other posters in the thread? It's not as if he's declaiming to the wind. There are people there who he is putting his views in front of. Isn't he talking to them?

 

[King sns]

You should speak out more often! Those are great views!

Who is he talking to if not to the other posters in the thread? It's not as if he's declaiming to the wind. There are people there who he is putting his views in front of. Isn't he talking to them?

Are you talking to me? I speak all the time! Some days more than others.

I know he's talking to everyone here, but so am I, so are you. Sometimes our opinions are going to relate to other people, but it's just opinions. Lots of them are cultural around here, too. I still want to see the Halla link. I know there has to be other stuff laying around that is causing a visceral reaction in people.

 

[ICUP]

but I just see a man stating opinions.

Look a little harder at his actions.