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  1. #141
    Senior Member King sns's Avatar
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    (Reads some of thread.)

    I feel like we're in a Victor autobiography and bibliography book club.

    I see what you're saying though, Victor. But I don't know if that's always the case to the extreme that you are talking about. I haven't read much of the thread, but I wonder if you're talking about consumerism in general.
    06/13 10:51:03 five sounds: you!!!
    06/13 10:51:08 shortnsweet: no you!!
    06/13 10:51:12 shortnsweet: go do your things and my things too!
    06/13 10:51:23 five sounds: oh hell naw
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    06/13 10:51:57 shortnsweet: (cries)
    06/13 10:52:19 RiftsWRX: You two are like furbies stuck in a shoe box

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  2. #142
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tiltyred View Post
    Why am I not surprised.
    Well, some people just don't understand each other, no matter how long they've been around each other.

    Also, while I don't always agree with Victor's methods (I think he has some anger toward women, in general) I see what amerellis is saying. Victor just has Fi morals he feels strongly about, and just last night I posted in another thread, that I very much see how he wants to explore authenticity and intimacy and the things in society which prevent that.

    Some people are so put off by Victor's way of expressing himself (the fact that he seems to write poems instead of posts, etc.) that they don't even pay attention to what he's actually consistently doing.

    I see both good and bad in his behavior, and I do think he can be attacking because of his personal social anxieties and fears, but on the other hand I see where he wants to reach out to people and get to the authentic, real person underneath, and how he's so intensely driven by his Fi morals.

    I'm pretty sure this is also why SimWorld thought Victor was ISFP instead of INFP...Fi/Ni loop...

  3. #143
    Senior Member amerellis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tiltyred View Post
    Ok, on what do you base your assumed greater understanding?
    I'm not even claiming I have greater understanding; I was just asking neebykoo to explain how he came to that conclusion as I didn't see how he reliably did. Maybe it was based off bits of past knowlege and nothing specific in this thread because I certainly didn't come to that conclusion.

  4. #144
    Senior Member amerellis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nebbykoo View Post
    I think he's the most intelligent poster here. I hope he writes an incredible novel someday...he certainly could. He has an oceanic mind.
    But Victor has often made vague/provocative statements, knowing he would be understood. It's part of his rhetorical style.
    And if one is determined to throw pearls before swine, to invite misunderstanding and ridicule, what does one hope to gain? That's what I was asking him.
    I take it you meant to type misunderstood. (Freudian typo? :p jk jk)
    With that correction however, how can you claim that he intends to be misunderstood? Maybe that is just the way he knows/likes to express himself? I don't consider his style of expression confusing, just provocative as you said.

  5. #145
    Post Human Post Qlip's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marmie Dearest View Post
    Some people are so put off by Victor's way of expressing himself (the fact that he seems to write poems instead of posts, etc.) that they don't even pay attention to what he's actually consistently doing.

    I see both good and bad in his behavior, and I do think he can be attacking because of his personal social anxieties and fears, but on the other hand I see where he wants to reach out to people and get to the authentic, real person underneath, and how he's so intensely driven by his Fi morals.

    I'm pretty sure this is also why SimWorld thought Victor was ISFP instead of INFP...Fi/Ni loop...
    What do you feel that he is consistently doing? Is it what you said below.. trying to get the root of people? I have to ask.. sometimes other see things that I don't, sometimes others allude to things as being obscure, when I find them obvious.

    I used to do this, think that everybody had this little authentic inner person in them, like [thought] I did and all they needed to do is let it out, remove the veils of thought and obfuscation. Then I learned that people don't operate the same way I do, and assuming that they do and trying to get at it is terribly irritating and invasive.

  6. #146
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    Quote Originally Posted by Qlip View Post
    What do you feel that he is consistently doing? Is it what you said below.. trying to get the root of people? I have to ask.. sometimes other see things that I don't, sometimes others allude to things as being obscure, when I find them obvious.

    I used to do this, think that everybody had this little authentic inner person in them, like [thought] I did and all they needed to do is let it out, remove the veils of thought and obfuscation. Then I learned that people don't operate the same way I do, and assuming that they do and trying to get at it is terribly irritating and invasive.
    Yeah, I think he is trying to get to the root of people because he literally says OUTRIGHT in many of his posts that people are distanced from each other or that he wishes for intimacy (since we're all in each others bedrooms with our computers) and he sees things like MBTI and cosmetics and other stuff as obscuring people's true inner selves, and as pretenses we use to keep from sharing our authentic inner selves. Victor says really kind things sometimes, with almost childlike sweetness, and yet he speaks harshly about things that he finds go against his values.

    Fi dom values mixed with the Ni need to speak symbolically and to "dig underneath" without proper usage of Se can create an insular inner world that isn't checked against real life, and can even lead to paranoia, or having such an individualistic way of speaking that other people might not understand you well unless they naturally "speak your language."

    I've never had a problem understanding Victor's point, ever. It amazes me that some people find him so confusing, and for a while I just thought it was because I majored in literature and was used to analyzing fiction and poetry, but maybe it's because Victor and I share functions.

    Trust me, I've been angry at Victor, but it's typically because of his fear of women and his own paranoia that people are out to get him that creates this. That's SAD. The more I think about it, the more that I think it's sad, and by attacking him, you're just confirming what he already thinks he knows; that people are going to reject him.

  7. #147
    Senior Member redcheerio's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tiltyred View Post
    It was not unfair or unkind. It was truthful.
    Thanks.


    Quote Originally Posted by Tiltyred View Post
    HE IS A TROLL. Yes, he just wants attention, because he is a troll. Why on earth else would you jump into a thread with high momentum and enthusiasm and everyone in happy agreement, and throw cold water on it? Why would you do it repeatedly and repeatedly complain that you are being yelled at when you do it? STOP DOING THE THING THAT GETS YOU YELLED AT AND THE YELLING WILL STOP. Victor, who is so fond of quoting the rules to other people about bullying and who threatens to report you if you insult him because that's against the rules and you could be banned ... I cannot believe anybody buys into it.

    Oh, he's metaphorical, y'know, that's cool, but the point is, start your own thread, or if you don't want to actually discuss, write a blog. Don't jump into other people's threads and piss on them. And then turn around and cry when they say they don't want to stop what they were enjoying talking about to entertain the subject you now insist out of the clear blue they turn their attention to. Again, who's the bully??
    I would guess he's more of a bull in a china shop, than an intentional bully or troll.


    Quote Originally Posted by Marmie Dearest View Post
    Well, some people just don't understand each other, no matter how long they've been around each other.

    Also, while I don't always agree with Victor's methods (I think he has some anger toward women, in general) I see what amerellis is saying. Victor just has Fi morals he feels strongly about, and just last night I posted in another thread, that I very much see how he wants to explore authenticity and intimacy and the things in society which prevent that.

    Some people are so put off by Victor's way of expressing himself (the fact that he seems to write poems instead of posts, etc.) that they don't even pay attention to what he's actually consistently doing.

    I see both good and bad in his behavior, and I do think he can be attacking because of his personal social anxieties and fears, but on the other hand I see where he wants to reach out to people and get to the authentic, real person underneath, and how he's so intensely driven by his Fi morals.

    I'm pretty sure this is also why SimWorld thought Victor was ISFP instead of INFP...Fi/Ni loop...
    I think you nailed it with the Fi/Ni loop. I was previously thinking Ne-Fi or Fi-Ne with zero Te, but Fi/Ni sounds more like it. His writing does sound primarily Fi, structured like Ni, with no Ti or Te to allow tolerance for disagreement or logical analysis.

    And I don't think he is a troll, either. I just wish he would put more effort into discussing his opinions rather than just proclaiming them. However, that is just my limited experience since I'm fairly new here.

    @Nerd Girl and @Salome seem to think he is capable of intelligent discussion/ debate, so I'll take their word for it.

  8. #148
    Senior Member Tiltyred's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marmie Dearest View Post
    Well, some people just don't understand each other, no matter how long they've been around each other.

    Also, while I don't always agree with Victor's methods (I think he has some anger toward women, in general) I see what amerellis is saying. Victor just has Fi morals he feels strongly about, and just last night I posted in another thread, that I very much see how he wants to explore authenticity and intimacy and the things in society which prevent that.

    Some people are so put off by Victor's way of expressing himself (the fact that he seems to write poems instead of posts, etc.) that they don't even pay attention to what he's actually consistently doing.

    I see both good and bad in his behavior, and I do think he can be attacking because of his personal social anxieties and fears, but on the other hand I see where he wants to reach out to people and get to the authentic, real person underneath, and how he's so intensely driven by his Fi morals.

    I'm pretty sure this is also why SimWorld thought Victor was ISFP instead of INFP...Fi/Ni loop...
    It really doesn't take any incredible-fine-bordering-on-psychic powers of discernment to understand his points. I understand that he may have strong feelings about things (although frankly I doubt this; I firmly believe that he is a provocateur, end of story). So I disagree with you entirely about his motives but that's a whole 'nother can of worms. He can write whatever he wants, however he wants to write it.

    I just want him to stop derailing other people's threads. And then crying about it when those people react with disapproval.

    That's all.

  9. #149
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    Yes, I disagree with your assessment of him as a troll. I also have never related to people who get so upset about derailment...however, I never said it takes psychic powers to understand him, and I just said some people don't get it...and most of them don't get it because they either don't want to pay attention or even try to understand. Although some people may be outright incapable for whatever reason.

  10. #150
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    Quote Originally Posted by amerellis View Post
    I take it you meant to type misunderstood. (Freudian typo? :p jk jk)
    With that correction however, how can you claim that he intends to be misunderstood? Maybe that is just the way he knows/likes to express himself? I don't consider his style of expression confusing, just provocative as you said.
    Yes, I meant misunderstood. Thanks for pointing that out.
    Yes, that is how he likes to express himself, or he would do it another way.
    And yes, he is more than aware enough to know he will be misunderstood, if by no other means than the long track record of it happening here.
    I agree, if you aren't looking for concrete answers, his style is not confusing. I enjoy it.
    And my original question still stands: why invite misunderstanding and ridicule?
    Because he want to enlighten.
    He spoke of the 'true self' and the 'ideal self'.
    ideal self = ego consciousness/vanity/'I': makeup-as-metaphor, cover over true self
    true self = soul/humility/'we': no need for makeup, no need to beautify.
    I think he is often vague, partially because he enjoys the confusion that ensues. It amuses his ego to be so inscrutable.
    The inscrutability is itself a form of makeup/covering. It makes people wonder whether or not they understand something. Clarity allows them to decide if they believe it.

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