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  1. #31
    Resident Snot-Nose GZA's Avatar
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    If I oppress people I am opressing myself. The way I see people, I get this sense that they are not too different from me. Yes, they are impossibly different, yet they're is something that connects people... call that collective conciousness or whatever you want. I feel like there is some kind of amazing thing in every person, so killing someone or opressing a group would be difficult.

    The exception is when a group is acting to oppress another group without justification. For example, criminals are a group that are justifiably oppressed, while nazis are a group that does not justifialy oppress. I would have no problem oppressing nazis (that is, if they were acting to oppress... I support teir freedom of expression, but do not support their actions or beleifs), and I only want criminals to be oppressed in a fair way that encourages change and productivity.

    I don't know what all this "modernist" and "post modernist" suff is, so call it what you want.

    So... oppresion is wrong to me because it is limiting the abilities of people who deserve to grow and flourish.

  2. #32
    Senior Member ThatsWhatHeSaid's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Journey View Post
    My question is rooted in a movement. Your breaking it down into individuals destroys the original question. We have nothing to discuss, unless you see something I don't.
    I'll tell you what I see. I see that entities don't make decisions on their own. In order to expose a contradiction, you need to expose something that advocates one thing, and then turns around and advocates the opposite. If you're going to expose a contradiction in a MOVEMENT, you need to ask whether movements can speak at all. I think it's obvious that they can't. Movements are just conglomerations of people with like minds. Any contradiction will be found at the individual level by necessity.

  3. #33
    Senior Member Journey's Avatar
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    If you can't speak in terms of movements, then you can't speak in terms of history at large at all. This is how things have been discussed down through the ages. This seems like a personal preference of yours, rather than a problem of great philosophical importance, Edahn. What gives?
    "My Journey is my Destination."

    "Today Counts Forever." R.C. Sproul

  4. #34
    Senior Member ThatsWhatHeSaid's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Journey View Post
    If you can't speak in terms of movements, then you can't speak in terms of history at large at all.
    No, that's fallacious. You just can't speak of movements contradicting themselves if you want to be accurate.

    This is how things have been discussed down through the ages.
    If it has, so what?

    This seems like a personal preference of yours, rather than a problem of great philosophical importance, Edahn. What gives?
    I think it's pretty important to be accurate. You can impute an opinion to something abstract like a movement, but it's imaginary and sloppy, imo. A movement doesn't have motivation or hold ideas because it's a fictional entity, like a corporation. Only its constituents can behave like this.

  5. #35
    Senior Member Journey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ThatsWhatHeSaid View Post
    No, that's fallacious. You just can't speak of movements contradicting themselves if you want to be accurate.



    If it has, so what?



    I think it's pretty important to be accurate. You can impute an opinion to something abstract like a movement, but it's imaginary and sloppy, imo. A movement doesn't have motivation or hold ideas because it's a fictional entity, like a corporation. Only its constituents can behave like this.
    You can speak of the consensus of a movement as contradicting itself or having an opinion as it is defined as a "group solidarity of sentiment or belief." Solidarity means "unity or the quality or state of not being multiple; oneness" which meets your criteria for dealing with individiual entities. That is not being imaginative or sloppy by anyone's opinion. A consensus can have motivation and hold ideas (just as it can have sentiment or belief). Thus, most accurately, a consensus of a movement can contradict itself. I went through this by your insistence. I'm not sure it was necessary to go through all this.

    Will you now, please, answer the original posted question?
    "My Journey is my Destination."

    "Today Counts Forever." R.C. Sproul

  6. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by ThatsWhatHeSaid View Post
    No, that's fallacious. You just can't speak of movements contradicting themselves if you want to be accurate.



    If it has, so what?



    I think it's pretty important to be accurate. You can impute an opinion to something abstract like a movement, but it's imaginary and sloppy, imo. A movement doesn't have motivation or hold ideas because it's a fictional entity, like a corporation. Only its constituents can behave like this.
    Quote Originally Posted by Journey View Post
    You can speak of the consensus of a movement as contradicting itself or having an opinion as it is defined as a "group solidarity of sentiment or belief." Solidarity means "unity or the quality or state of not being multiple; oneness" which meets your criteria for dealing with individiual entities. That is not being imaginative or sloppy by anyone's opinion. A consensus can have motivation and hold ideas (just as it can have sentiment or belief) and is not fictional. Thus, most accurately, a consensus of a movement can contradict itself. I went through this by your insistence. I'm not sure it was necessary to go through all this.

    Big cat envy.

  7. #37
    Senior Member Journey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by return-of-uni View Post
    Big cat envy.
    Psalm 11:2-3
    "My Journey is my Destination."

    "Today Counts Forever." R.C. Sproul

  8. #38
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ThatsWhatHeSaid View Post
    I still disagree about viewing the movement as an entity. Entities don't make decisions apart from their contributors. Viewing this on anything but an individual basis is just misleading and confusing because it's not an accurate portrayal of what's actually happening (individual action), but more a description of the labels, groupings, and boundaries that are imposed and projected onto what's actually happening (entities). I imagine that this is exactly what post modernists are trying to avoid and correct.
    Yup. They are all for recognizing and challenging our assumptions (imposed by society) about how the world works.

    In a way, it's rather Ni -- there are multiple ways to view life and/or a particular situation, and each is based on some set assumptions. Often people only see life from one angle and don't even realize they have made assumptions. Deconstructionists wants to tear the abstract artifices apart so we can recognize what assumptions we are making, in the hopes that it will bring freedom for us to make even more powerful decisions.

    It's not a matter of having NO worldview (how could we live, if we made no assumptions?), it's a matter of clearly understanding what assumptions you have made and restrictions you have accepted in choosing your own worldview.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  9. #39
    Senior Member Journey's Avatar
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    I've already stated that I don't think deconstruction is a bad thing at all, in moderation. The problem is that Postmodernist deconstructionists tend to want to throw the baby out with the bathwater. For instance, if they deconstruct the Declaration of Independence on the rightful grounds that women's suffrage and slave rights were ignored in the "all men are created with the right to liberty" phrase, they are right to point this out. However, it could definitely be argued that the document later inspired women's suffrage and slave rights and is thus not to be merely dismissed as a power play by wealthy, white, male, supremacists. It still is an important document today (which deconstructionists would deny). It is all part of that reaction that narratives have to be deconstructed because they oppress people (the moral absolute of the Postmodernist movement).
    "My Journey is my Destination."

    "Today Counts Forever." R.C. Sproul

  10. #40
    Senior Member ThatsWhatHeSaid's Avatar
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    Will you now, please, answer the original posted question?
    I already did in post 29, and your tone is annoying.

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