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  1. #11
    The Destroyer Colors's Avatar
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    How far can anyone really deconstruct anything before it becomes meaningless anyway? Sure a picture is made of pixels. Many, many of them in a photograph I can take on my digital camera. What good does it do to see the single pixels?- they make sense as a whole.

    I like freedom. I wouldn't want others to intrude severely on my freedom. One way to try and influence others to not oppress me is to try not to oppress others. Of course, however, my idea of the freedom I am entitled to is shaped/formed by my knowledge of the world around me, and the social norms. I suppose you could come up with a social order in which the oppressed expect to be so- and in many historical contexts, this has been true.

    Do people need freedom? I guess maybe it's tied to survival. You want the materials to survive- food, clothing, shelter, etc. And as people get more technologically advanced to get these things, freedom becomes somewhat an mix of those same urges/goals? Will think it over some more.

  2. #12
    Enigma Nadir's Avatar
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    Well, speaking of peoples, it's not like oppression is ever judged as "right" or "wrong" -- at least, not pre-emptively. Someone has to go ahead and do it first, and then we armchair critics go "That's wrong! *handbag smack, sniff and turn away*" for all our worth. So I suppose we feel it's wrong, because it's the least we can do. Let's remember that we are for the most part observers, unless we ourselves are oppressed...

    So, I don't really see why the OP's point should be characterized as a weakness in Postmodernism... I think what it *really* means with deconstruction is something along the lines of "Yo, let me deconstruct this concept, this presupposition you have, and you see how you like it. I don't really give a damn either way, but my preference is for deconstruction, and really, it might broaden your horizons too, to at least glimpse." So it's not really wrong as if implying a value judgment -- it's just not preferred. I have a feeling that postmodernism would rise against itself if it felt like it and feel perfectly comfortable doing it.
    Not really.

  3. #13
    Senior Member Journey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    I used to not want to believe in evolution, partly because I didn't want to believe it and partly because it didn't seem to make sense. I think, though, as technology increases and we more and more build scientific advances based on the exact same principles that evolution describes, that we'll see how plausible it actually is. The next hundred years should be very interesting in terms of social thought.

    So you can deconstruct the social insinuations that evolution might have spawned, but you can't really deconstruct a process based in the real world. (That's like saying you can somehow meaningfully deconstruct a chemical reaction.) Either it works or it doesn't.
    From my far too extensive study of evolution (forced on me by a Biology Major), I found that the proofs offered for it were unsubstantial. For example, all of the "evolution" hard evidence was actually explained by degeneration rather than by an upwardly evolving patterns. One of the classic proofs is the evolution of the horse's hoof coming from its 5 toed predecessor. That is degeneration, not evolution, but it is presented as evolution because it was a change process. All the "sound" and "provable" cases for evolution are actually degeneration processes. Look them up for yourself. If things have changed in the past years, tell me about it. It actually takes more faith to believe in evolution than it does in creation. The only case of something evolving I believe in was when woman came from the rib of a man. She was more evolved than he was by virtue of being more sexually complex! It took God to do this, however.

    I agree with you though that true science cannot be deconstructed. I just don't believe evolution is true science.

    Edahn, yes, you answered the question that was the title of the thread. But beneath the surface of that title I was really talking about questions of Postmodernist thinking, especially deconstruction. We are living in the Postmodern era. I'd really like to know your opinions on Postmodernism, not just for this thread, but as it comes more and more a part of our society it will show up in the forum more and more.

    Quote Originally Posted by Colors View Post
    How far can anyone really deconstruct anything before it becomes meaningless anyway? Sure a picture is made of pixels. Many, many of them in a photograph I can take on my digital camera. What good does it do to see the single pixels?- they make sense as a whole.
    I think this is a good point.
    "My Journey is my Destination."

    "Today Counts Forever." R.C. Sproul

  4. #14
    Senior Member ThatsWhatHeSaid's Avatar
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    Well, maybe the answer is the same. A postmodernist could advocate freedom even though they understand that it's only a subjective moral value in the same way I would.

  5. #15
    Senior Member Journey's Avatar
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    Deconstructionism is a kind of relativism and provides the intellectual grounding for the popular relativism in society today. It is intellectually sophisticated, theoretically grounded and methodologically rigorous and corrodes the very concept of absolute truth. Veith, Postmodern Times, 1994, p 56. The problem with it is that it is flawed in it's very essence. It's motivations are in reaction to the Modernism and Humanism of the past and the perceived oppression from those philosophies. Deconstructionism is a reaction against oppression (a moral absolute, not a subjective moral value) and therein lies its fatal flaw.
    "My Journey is my Destination."

    "Today Counts Forever." R.C. Sproul

  6. #16
    Senior Member ThatsWhatHeSaid's Avatar
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    Why do you say it's a moral absolute? What makes it appear that the deconstructionists maintain freedom as a moral absolute instead of something they personally strive for?

  7. #17
    `~~Philosoflying~~` SillySapienne's Avatar
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    Why is it wrong to shoot a stranger in the head?

    Why is it wrong to rape someone?

    Why is it wrong to lock an innocent away in a room?

    Why is it wrong to frame someone?

    Well, because, when you *force* your will upon and against a relative stranger, you are committing a crime against their rights to their selves, and for and within themselves, their rights to individual freedom.

    There are times when *force* is fair and acceptable, i.e. parents with their children, the legal system, general code of conduct when living in a society, i.e. traffic laws.

    But in general, when a person forces another to wrongly do, think, experience and feel something, the person who acts as "enforcer" is acting immorally, and is therefore committing a moral crime.
    `
    'Cause you can't handle me...

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    "That that is, is. That that is not, is not. Is that it? It is."

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  8. #18
    Senior Member ThatsWhatHeSaid's Avatar
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    ^ This isn't a debate about moral relativity. (Thank God.) It's about investigating an inconsistency.

  9. #19
    `~~Philosoflying~~` SillySapienne's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ThatsWhatHeSaid View Post
    ^ This isn't a debate about moral relativity. (Thank God.) It's about investigating an inconsistency.
    Lol, I didn't even read any of the posts, I just responded to the thread title, whoops!!

    `
    'Cause you can't handle me...

    "A lie is a lie even if everyone believes it. The truth is the truth even if nobody believes it." - David Stevens

    "That that is, is. That that is not, is not. Is that it? It is."

    Veritatem dies aperit

    Ride si sapis

    Intelligentle sparkles

  10. #20
    DoubleplusUngoodNonperson
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    So how can it be "wrong" to oppress people in a Postmodernist view?
    It's not, and it's generally somewhat accepted that certain populations be oppressed in order to accomplish worthy goals. For example, it is generally accepted that people in the military sacrifice many freedoms and liberties in order to serve a higher function. Even though our servicemen and servicewomen honorably do this willingly, they still live under very oppressed conditions. This is what makes them heroes.

    Another good example is what we do to our children. Children legally hence literally live as slaves until the age of 18, but no one thinks it unfavorable.

    This essentially goes back to Plato's republic - what is of greater concern: the individual or the state? It is not wrong to answer the latter.

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