Does mainstream = bad?

[Thalassa]

NO!!!!

The Hangover, Wedding Crashers, and 40 Year Old Virgin are some of funniest fucking movies I've seen in recent years and they were all mainstream. Amelie went pretty mainstream (more so than some of Jean-Pierre Jeunet's other films) and it is a fantastic film.

Agatha Christie is one of the best selling authors in the world (she's like up there with The Bible and Shakespeare),and the best-selling mystery novelist EVAR, and I love her books.

Same thing with some music - there are mainstream bands which are fantastic, and others that suck.

What I watch for is a lot of extreme commercialism...that's what is wrong with "mainstream" sometimes, is the commercialism behind it, the lack of content, blah blah blah...but that doesn't mean that mainstream in and of itself equals bad.

Unless you're a pretentious hipster and a band is only good if fifty other people have heard of it.

 

[Thalassa]

I think the problem many people have with commercial 'art' is that it is not done the way it is done for artistic but for monetary reasons. While not everything is popular because it was designed to be popular, some things obviously are. If that - art being done without artistic intentions - is sufficient reason to disdain it depends on one's views on art and aesthetics in general. Those views, of course, are ultimately subjective.

You said it better than me.

 

[Thalassa]

Yes. A lot of mainstream music (let's take popular christmas songs) are engineered to be easy listening and generally liked. It's like candy for your brain. But you listen to it too much and, depending on your tolerance (your brain's sweet tooth), it can start to drive you crazy. It may just be a matter of how tolerant people are to fluff. But it IS popular because our brains LIKE that kind of stuff. Just some of us can't take much of it, while others can.

I can tell you that too much of anything can start to drive me crazy, whether it's listening to Tori Amos on repeat or Frank Sinatra or Fur Elise or 80's pop or Avril Lavigne. I can't stand to listen to the same thing over and over (though I have my favorites that I will listen to on repeat when I get in the mood) which is why I listen to so many different kinds of bands from the past 100 years or so. I have to switch it up. If I listened to 90's alternative for weeks on end I'd be just as ready to kill someone as I would be if I listened to 00's pop for the same length of time.

 

[Lark]

I read the book The Middle Mind: Why Consumer Culture is Turning Us Into The Living Dead (which I think took a long time to materialise given that that's the whole subtext to Dawn of The Dead, the original, not even the remake) and was impressed with some of what it had to say, on the other hand the same book has been rightly criticised because its perspective was/is anti-democratic, criticisms of the popular, simply because its popular, are usually highly elitist, the sort of elitism which left wing trendies do really well while condeming others for being its key proponent.

 

[Thalassa]

I read the book The Middle Mind: Why Consumer Culture is Turning Us Into The Living Dead (which I think took a long time to materialise given that that's the whole subtext to Dawn of The Dead, the original, not even the remake) and was impressed with some of what it had to say, on the other hand the same book has been rightly criticised because its perspective was/is anti-democratic, criticisms of the popular, simply because its popular, are usually highly elitist, the sort of elitism which left wing trendies do really well while condeming others for being its key proponent.

Here's my response to this: back in the day, life was much slower. An artist or musician created a new painting or piece of music over looooong stretches of time. People were actually rarely exposed to "new." The only reason why people think stuff now is worse is because THERES SO MUCH OF IT. We expect new or different or original or fresh at a very extremely fast rate, which is kind of unreasonable.

Plus, big huge ground breaking works of art take time and effort. I don't think humans are designed to produce those Big Breakthroughs with every painting, novel, or album/song.

If we look at what has stood the test of time, and how slowly things were produced back in the day, I think we'd become a lot more reasonable about our pretentious expectations of culture.

Though I will admit that "real art" does take time and effort....so naturally an album that was made in a studio in four hours with some producers isn't going to be as good as musicians who diligently and soulfully worked on their music for a longer and more intense period of time.

Same thing with a classic oil painting which took years to complete in amazing detail, and some computer graphics shit that was made in a day.

EDIT: and yes the elitism thing...that goes way back too. There's always been "folk music" or folk tales which weren't considered on the same level as some art and music from the upper classes, but does that means it's bad? No. Some folk tales have spanned hundreds of years and cultures, same with some folk songs.

 

[Lark]

Well I do think something isnt right when you go to the cinema, as I did the last time I went which was to see Rise of The Planet of The Apes, and come out to see the line up of up and coming films and they are ones you've seen before, alongside the movie I'd just seen I saw advertised Footloose and Conan The Barbarian. Which means there's nothing conceptually new.

So I have time for any critics who're drawing attention to that, although not so much time for those which are engaging in a kind of "the cool kids" game whereby they slag everyone else's tastes, those movies might be alright despite having been done before.

I'm also aware that perhaps the people attending them, like some of the ones I went to the movie with, wouldnt remember the original film, wouldnt remember the TV series spawned by the film, wouldnt remember the original comic book with accompanying mini-LP for a mini-record player.

It could be a generational thing and the good ideas are turning out to be perrenial, reinvented and re-envisaged. Mind you if that is what's happening its happening with a smaller and smaller time frame, its not been a generation from the last series of Spiderman movies, which I didnt know where actually concluded with the one featuring Venom and Sandman as the villains, and there is an entirely new version in the works or completed, likewise with X-Men.

Although I will be frank, I'm ambivalent about the demands for originality in gaming and film because they often take on an "entertain me", as in someone else, supply what I need, externalisation of needs character which I hate. At this juncture I wait for someone to reply with a "go on entertain yourselves, assholes". Its the same as the "we're bored" complaint which featured during the recent rioting in the UK, seriously, how is that anyone else's problem? Or the "there's nothing to do around here" follow up to it which featured in interviews, maybe bread and circuses has gone too far because time was freedom sufficed and people made their own fun.

I also think that part of the death of imagination which has taken place has been a consequence of the rise, rise, rise and better rise of intellectual brand atheism and science which has done a damn good job of not just killing off wonder but making anyone who remains in wonder and awe feel stupid, silly, whatever.

 

[Thalassa]

There's nothing conceptually new? Yes there is, you're just not looking for it. There are plenty of new films. These re-makes are to bring old movies to a new generation.

As someone who majored in literature, don't make me quote Shakespeare and tell you that there's really nothing new under the sun (and there wasn't 500 years ago, either).

 

[Speed Gavroche]

Does mainstream = bad?

No.

Mainstream:

[youtube=OMOGaugKpzs]The Police - Every Breath You Take[/youtube]

Non mainstream:

[youtube=5cqy4-vCo0M]GG Allin - Eat my Diarrhea (Studio version with Lyrics) [/youtube]

Some like GG Allin, but that does'nt mean that Police suck for the only reason that it is mainstream.

Other examples.

Mainstream:

[youtube=LQZLPV6xcHI]Sunday Bloody Sunday - U2 (with lyrics)[/youtube]

Non mainstream:

[youtube=ZL6imKX2sFo]Crust Punk Bands Part 2[/youtube]

Mainstream:

[youtube=DksSPZTZES0]Justin Timberlake - Cry Me A River[/youtube]

Non mainstream:

[youtube=6ChZCQ6NF5k]Gronibard- Va faire la vaisselle[/youtube]

So, I don't see why soemone could'nt like mainstream and non-mainstream examples or why the one who prefer non mainstream example should have a "less good" taste than the one who prefer non mainstream example.

One swallow does'nt make a summer, I agreed with everyting Marm wrote on this thread.

 

[Thalassa]

No.

Mainstream:

[youtube=OMOGaugKpzs]The Police - Every Breath You Take[/youtube]

Non mainstream:

[youtube=5cqy4-vCo0M]GG Allin - Eat my Diarrhea (Studio version with Lyrics) [/youtube]

Some like GG Allin, but that does'nt mean that Police suck for the only reason that it is mainstream.

Other examples.

Mainstream:

[youtube=LQZLPV6xcHI]Sunday Bloody Sunday - U2 (with lyrics)[/youtube]

Non mainstream:

[youtube=ZL6imKX2sFo]Crust Punk Bands Part 2[/youtube]

Mainstream:

[youtube=DksSPZTZES0]Justin Timberlake - Cry Me A River[/youtube]

Non mainstream:

[youtube=6ChZCQ6NF5k]Gronibard- Va faire la vaisselle[/youtube]

So, I don't see why soemone could'nt like mainstream and non-mainstream examples or why the one who prefer non mainstream example should have a "less good" taste than the one who prefer non mainstream example.

One swallow does'nt make a summer, I agreed with everyting Marm wrote on this thread.

Great post. Comparing "Every Breath You Take" to "Eat My Diarrheah" was a complete win in proving your point.

 

[Rail Tracer]

Great post. Comparing "Every Breath You Take" to "Eat My Diarrheah" was a complete win in proving your point.

I was going to post something, but figured [MENTION=5356]Speed Gavroche[/MENTION] made the point too.

 

[Elfboy]

I don't have an issue with main stream as much as I have an issue with taking things that are complex and unique and watering them down to make them main stream. for instance, the fact that mainstream singers like Josh Groban, Sara Brightman or Lara Fabian are considered "opera singers" is just insulting. making niche interests mainstream strips them of their integrity, standards and sophistication.

 

[jcloudz]

this is classic.

 

[Thalassa]

this is classic.

 

[LEGERdeMAIN]

I don't have an issue with main stream as much as I have an issue with taking things that are complex and unique and watering them down to make them main stream. for instance, the fact that mainstream singers like Josh Groban, Sara Brightman or Lara Fabian are considered "opera singers" is just insulting. making niche interests mainstream strips them of their integrity, standards and sophistication.

usually when this happens, they are distinguished by putting a "pop" in front of the original genre. Like...pop-rock, pop-country, pop-pop, pop-punk, pop-post-punk, pop-post-pop-punk, pop-post-pop-pop-punk-metal-jazz-fusion..... .... . . . .

 

[Elfboy]

usually when this happens, they are distinguished by putting a "pop" in front of the original genre. Like...pop-rock, pop-country, pop-pop, pop-punk, pop-post-punk, pop-post-pop-punk, pop-post-pop-pop-punk-metal-jazz-fusion..... .... . . . .

you mean, in theory, they're supposed to. truthfully, they rarely do. another thing I don't like is it gets rid of the exclusivity. opera is supposed to be exclusive, it's not supposed to be this cheap, mass produced thing that every simpleton you meet can understand. making an art form popularized makes it people pleasing, thus loosing it's integrity and authenticity.

 

[Thalassa]

you mean, in theory, they're supposed to. truthfully, they rarely do. another thing I don't like is it gets rid of the exclusivity. opera is supposed to be exclusive, it's not supposed to be this cheap, mass produced thing that every simpleton you meet can understand. making an art form popularized makes it people pleasing, thus loosing it's integrity and authenticity.

I hope you grow out of this elitism some day. There's plenty of folk music that is authentic, and largely because it completely lacks pretentiousness. It's one of the main reasons why I like folk music from the 60's and 70's, as well as Southern rock.

Folk music or popular doesn't equal inauthentic. That's really oversimplifying things.

 

[LEGERdeMAIN]

you mean, in theory, they're supposed to. truthfully, they rarely do. another thing I don't like is it gets rid of the exclusivity. opera is supposed to be exclusive, it's not supposed to be this cheap, mass produced thing that every simpleton you meet can understand. making an art form popularized makes it people pleasing, thus loosing it's integrity and authenticity.

Yeah, you're right. If you can't eat Siberian Tiger liver pate and listen to fat Italians moaning to each other without those filthy plebeians getting involved, you might as well stab yourself in the face.

 

[jcloudz]

 

[Elfboy]

I hope you grow out of this elitism some day. There's plenty of folk music that is authentic, and largely because it completely lacks pretentiousness. It's one of the main reasons why I like folk music from the 60's and 70's, as well as Southern rock.
Folk music or popular doesn't equal inauthentic. That's really oversimplifying things.

please read my post more carefully before you resort to condescension and telling me to "grow up". I'm talking about music that is deliberately watered down to appeal to the masses. this is not the case with the genres you've mentioned, I've already made this distinction. also, not all elitist tendencies are bad. wanting to be in the presence of high quality and authenticity does not make you a snob that goes around turning there nose up at everyone. not everyone is a part of this earthy, collectivist hipster nation that so many people scorn me for not wanting to be a part of.

 

[Elfboy]

Yeah, you're right. If you can't eat Siberian Tiger liver pate and listen to fat Italians moaning to each other without those filthy plebeians getting involved, you might as well stab yourself in the face.

what?