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Christianity's Fall from Grace (in the US)

mippus

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Jen edit: Copied from here cuz I felt like I doing a large derail... and maybe the topic deserves its own thread.


America and religion is fascinating. I have the impression that Western Europe is not into churches at all, but probably there is a strong spiritual need. Question is: is the American situation our past or our future?
Here it seems hard to admit that you are a Christian, nowadays...
 

Seanan

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America and religion is fascinating. I have the impression that Western Europe is not into churches at all, but probably there is a strong spiritual need. Question is: is the American situation our past or our future?
Here it seems hard to admit that you are a Christian, nowadays...

It is here too. It is sad since the country was formed by and on Christian principles. I guess all the authoritarian types just MUST have someone to look down on for a sense of self-worth. Racism, sexism, etc are not PC now so they use the Christians for that. What I fear is a backlash.. the way INTPc looks... with alot of defensiveness from being beaten up and them diggin in... returning to the old ways that put people off. Its just really sad to watch such "open minded" people be so narrow and destructive.
 

Totenkindly

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/mini-rant

As someone who spent 35+ years in it, I'm inclined to see the conservative church as having dug its own grave. What we reap, that's what we have sown.

So yes, I think a lot of people in the States are now prejudiced against Christianity and lash out at it or have kneejerk reactions to it... and that's a problem they need to deal with in their own lives... but the church mostly brought this on itself.

For many many years, Christianity was the dominant faith in this country. We rode the high horse. Accordingly we became complacent with being in charge. Christianity neglected the poor. It entrenched itself with the political authorities. It disenfranchised those who disagreed with it, ideologically. It abused those it was supposed to love. It assumed that it was always right and knew everything there was to know about God and rightness. It equated the Christian life with "having the right beliefs" rather than "living the right way." And people of other beliefs would have their GOOD actions disparaged just because they happened to have different intellectual beliefs; if you were a buddhist or muslim or some other person of faith, and acted just as a Christian should in terms of loving and sacrifice for others, you were still told you were going to hell and that all of your kindness and goodness wasn't worth anything. Because you didn't hold the right ideology in your head.

In the 70's and 80's, as a reaction to the culture exploring other views of life, the church became politically dogmatic. The church wanted to protect itself. I still remember how awful the abortion rights conflict of the 80's was; I hated the church for what it did to itself, the demands it made on its members intellectually, the way it castigated and condemned those who had other opinions that didn't fit with their particular interpretation of the Bible.

Instead of engaging the culture and learning how to live within it (as Paul and Jesus and the disciples did), pouring out themselves as a sacrifice to woo the culture, conservative Christianity sought power to inflict its beliefs on others. It also wove a protective cloak about itself, to separate itself from the culture, and thus lost any positive influence it might have had. It was more concerned with protecting its own interests than loving the world and engaging it relationally.

Thus the "Christian subculture" sprang up. It sold its own books, own movies, own clothes, own pop culture. It catered to the needs of Christians who didn't want to be involved in the world and hated what the world was. The culture is self-feeding and self-focused, with commercialist roots, reinforcing its own value system without taking in new ideas.

All this "liberal" churches? Regardless of their theology (whether it is more accurate or less), at least they were engaging the culture and made themselves accessible. Perhaps they were too inclusive? I don't know, but I do know it's about how you live and who you love, NOT about what you know. From what I can see, God can forgive mistakes in thinking among fallible non-omniscient human beings; but I don't think he can forgive hard, isolationist hearts.

I am not much for INTPc's constant bashing of Christians; I find it annoying and shallow. And if you read my blog, you know that I agonize over my conservative Christian family's views of me... and I don't hate them, and I accept them where they're at because I understand them, and I try to love them rather than close them out of my life. I really understand and empathize where they are at.

But really, the general church in the US had it coming. In the very general sense, we're like the dictator who finally got deposed and shoved in the dirt, and now we complain because we no longer have the power to influence those around us. We should have thought of that when we actually had power... and we should have used our power wisely.
 

Seanan

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Good post Jennifer and I agree on much.

People just don't change.. they always have to have something or someone to beat up... and, in many cases, will use "history" to justify it. Its not unigue to any group... Barrack Obama's minister's statements are an example... taking it all the way from "white" history to hating America. World opinion of Americans another. Today, here, it seems to be Christians and smokers. The obese are next if I'm any good at predicting at all.
 

nozflubber

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What is this "The Church" you speak of? Holy Roman Church? I think you overgeneralize

but regardless, "The Church" will always have its function and will serve as a political catalyst in the future. If MBTI does anything for you, it should show you that much. dug their own grave? "Had it coming"? Not likely, religious institutions manage themselves very well, in the US and elsewhere.

I don't believe in God, but I believe in the shepherd.
 

Totenkindly

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What is this "The Church" you speak of? Holy Roman Church? I think you overgeneralize

Sorry. The United States evangelical/conservative church.

I didn't experience that with Cathoilcs at all.

but regardless, "The Church" will always have its function and will serve as a political catalyst in the future. If MBTI does anything for you, it should show you that much. dug their own grave? "Had it coming"? Not likely, religious institutions manage themselves very well, in the US and elsewhere.

I'm not really sure what you're trying to say.

I don't believe in God, but I believe in the shepherd.

I don't understand that either. Could you explain a little more?

[It confuses me, growing up in the environment I did: Jesus = Shepherd, Jesus = God, so if you don't believe in God, why would you believe in a shepherd?]

People just don't change.. they always have to have something or someone to beat up... and, in many cases, will use "history" to justify it. Its not unigue to any group... Barrack Obama's minister's statements are an example... taking it all the way from "white" history to hating America. World opinion of Americans another. Today, here, it seems to be Christians and smokers. The obese are next if I'm any good at predicting at all.

Smokers... oh dear. Yes, you have that one nailed. I don't like smoking, can't stand to be around smoke, see my father dying from emphysema.... but I don't like the attitude I pick up from some people towards smokers, as if they are criminals or human scum. They're not any of those things. Definitely unfairly vilified here in the US.

The Obama thing -- I read the clips of his pastor. I don't think I would have said what he did, but I understood why he said it. I suppose this is the difference between listening to the specifics versus listening to the intent/concept. Some people get hung up on the wording, but the context sometimes changes what the words seem to mean. It being an election year, it was inevitable that any little snippet would be exploited, forcing Obama to do a song and dance to distance himself. Politics just confound me.

Ideally, what I would like to see is a country or community where people could share what they thought without being vilified... or vilifying others... for sharing it. I spent a few weeks on the ex-Christian.net site and finally just left. I could identify with a few people with poignant stories about how they felt crushed within the church (which happens), but there were enough people there that just had an axe to grind and couldn't see it... and they were doing their own share of vilification of Christianity. That's the behavior I hate to see, regardless of what group is doing it.
 

Wandering

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Question is: is the American situation our past or our future?
Jennifer pretty much answered that question without directly addressing it:

For many many years, Christianity was the dominant faith in this country. We rode the high horse. Accordingly we became complacent with being in charge. Christianity neglected the poor. It entrenched itself with the political authorities. It disenfranchised those who disagreed with it, ideologically. It abused those it was supposed to love. It assumed that it was always right and knew everything there was to know about God and rightness. It equated the Christian life with "having the right beliefs" rather than "living the right way." And people of other beliefs would have their GOOD actions disparaged just because they happened to have different intellectual beliefs; if you were a buddhist or muslim or some other person of faith, and acted just as a Christian should in terms of loving and sacrifice for others, you were still told you were going to hell and that all of your kindness and goodness wasn't worth anything. Because you didn't hold the right ideology in your head.

(...)

But really, the general church in the US had it coming. In the very general sense, we're like the dictator who finally got deposed and shoved in the dirt, and now we complain because we no longer have the power to influence those around us. We should have thought of that when we actually had power... and we should have used our power wisely.
That ^^ is exactly what happened in Europe, except that it wasn't a few decades ago, but a few centuries ago.

So: America's present situation is Europe's past. (As would be expected since America is the New World, and Europe is the Old World :rolleyes:)
 

Kiddo

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Jen edit: Copied from here cuz I felt like I doing a large derail... and maybe the topic deserves its own thread.


America and religion is fascinating. I have the impression that Western Europe is not into churches at all, but probably there is a strong spiritual need. Question is: is the American situation our past or our future?
Here it seems hard to admit that you are a Christian, nowadays...

Christianity has been hijacked to exploit people for centuries. It was used by the conquistadors to justify horrible atrocities against the natives of the New World who they deemed as "sodomites." It was used to justify the enslavement of Africans to work in the New World because they were deemed to bear the "mark of Cain." It was used to justify the forceful occupation of native communal lands by American settlers. Christianity is a tool with which people can justify acting unethically by claiming they are acting morally. With a rap sheet that long, I wouldn't be proud to call myself Christian either.
 

Seanan

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Christianity has been hijacked to exploit people for centuries. It was used by the conquistadors to justify horrible atrocities against the natives of the New World who they deemed as "sodomites." It was used to justify the enslavement of Africans to work in the New World because they were deemed to bear the "mark of Cain." It was used to justify the forceful occupation of native communal lands by American settlers. Christianity is a tool with which people can justify acting unethically by claiming they are acting morally. With a rap sheet that long, I wouldn't be proud to call myself Christian either.

Those seeking power will always use the predominant anything, including religion, to enlist them... ie: terrorism.
 
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Christianity has been hijacked to exploit people for centuries. It was used by the conquistadors to justify horrible atrocities against the natives of the New World who they deemed as "sodomites." It was used to justify the enslavement of Africans to work in the New World because they were deemed to bear the "mark of Cain." It was used to justify the forceful occupation of native communal lands by American settlers. Christianity is a tool with which people can justify acting unethically by claiming they are acting morally. With a rap sheet that long, I wouldn't be proud to call myself Christian either.

Those that hijack a philosophy don't get to define it. Would you be ashamed to call yourself a woodcarver because some people use knives to kill?

Some elements in the Protestant evangelical churches made a conscious decision in the latter third of the 20th century to seek political power and to turn America into a Christian nation where the law of the republic is replaced by the law of the Bible. That is why they're on the defensive, and that is why Jennifer is right. Sadly, they're still winning. But these people aren't Christians. They're tyrants and political opportunists who use Christianity as a Trojan horse.

The liberal intelligentsia in America constantly bend over backwards to point out that Islamic terrorists are not representative of Islam and that to blame Islam or Arabic peoples broadly is xenophobic and counterproductive. I wish they would extend the same courtesy to their Christian countrymen.
 

Colors

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What are y'all talking about? What backlash against Christianity- what backlash against the church institutions? From what I've seen of America, it's still quite Christian and quite evangelical, and I think if you did a poll, you would find that quite a few people are religious and go to church.

How are they on the defensive? They have a president; evangelical numbers are strong enough to boost Huckabee (considered a non-contender by Republican insiders) into a good showing- etc.
 

Seanan

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What are y'all talking about? What backlash against Christianity- what backlash against the church institutions? From what I've seen of America, it's still quite Christian and quite evangelical, and I think if you did a poll, you would find that quite a few people are religious and go to church.

How are they on the defensive? They have a president; evangelical numbers are strong enough to boost Huckabee (considered a non-contender by Republican insiders) into a good showing- etc.

Have you missed the "Christmas" debates, the wearing of a cross necklace ban for teachers or ACLU persuits? Yes, it might be as long as Christians keep fighting.
 

Colors

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Wow, so people actually daring to bring up the manifestations of an aggressive pro-Christian (and anti-everyone else) atmosphere in the US (in some places) means Christianity has "fallen from grace"?

ETA: I'm inquiring what evidence one can use to assess that the church institutions have lost the will of the people (and if it exists, if it due to action of their making, constituting a "fall from grace").
 

swordpath

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Have you missed the "Christmas" debates, the wearing of a cross necklace ban for teachers or ACLU persuits? Yes, it might be as long as Christians keep fighting.

Don't get California and America confused.

I love Cali, but god damn that place is something else.
 

mysavior

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Religion's problem is the people.

I am a christian. I don't go to church much now, and I never enjoyed going to church when I was younger. Why? I didn't like the people. They were usually full of shit, and making a mockery of the religion.

That said, christianity/religion is more than the people. Its about you and your spirituality. You are supposed to draw strength from other believers through faith, but that rarely happens anymore.

Christianity's decline? Mostly the roman catholic priest scandals, and the bashing religion has received in the media. Its being cited as the root of the problem, and not a source of refuge. On many fronts they are correct, but the problem, as always, is the people. If christianity/religion weren't around then the Osama's of the world would just find another means to get to their desired end.
 

creativeRhino

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"I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ." -
-- Mahatma Gandhi


Pretty well sums it up for me as far as any decline. Especially the "prosperity cult" versions in the evangelical end of the "faith". They rely on fear of what happens after death. It is nothing like the REAL biblical in terms of material things (the bible tends to be prescribing a virtually a communist/socialist economic order - giving your surplus coats to folks who don't have one....etc) OR in terms of sexual morality (the evangelicals are obsessed with this but the bible is much quieter on this subject than material stuff!).

But from where I sit (downunder) it seems that the US "Christian" lobby has a huge influence even if there is little in the way or sincere numbers behind the push.

At university we were warned not to give too much credence to statistics on religious affiliation - most folks who are athiest/agnostic tend to say they are Anglican/Episcopalian or other "soft option" rather than admit to it.

Even here it is still only "just OK" to claim non-belief.

In "good times" religousity tends to decline but in times of fear (economic issues/terrorism) it tends to increase.
 

Owl

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Rom 2:21 you, then, who teach others, do you not teach yourself? You who preach against stealing, do you steal? 22 You who say that people should not commit adultery, do you commit adultery? You who abhor idols, do you rob temples? 23 You who brag about the law, do you dishonor God by breaking the law? 24 As it is written: "God's name is blasphemed among the Gentiles because of you."

Mat 5:13 "You are the salt of the earth. But if the salt loses its saltiness, how can it be made salty again? It is no longer good for anything, except to be thrown out and trampled by men."
 

Totenkindly

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Some elements in the Protestant evangelical churches made a conscious decision in the latter third of the 20th century to seek political power and to turn America into a Christian nation where the law of the republic is replaced by the law of the Bible. That is why they're on the defensive, and that is why Jennifer is right. Sadly, they're still winning. But these people aren't Christians. They're tyrants and political opportunists who use Christianity as a Trojan horse.

I think what disturbs me is that the bad apples can poison the bunch.

I see a lot of decent, good-meaning people whose ideas about the faith and some of their behavior is impacted by the James Dobson's and others who want to wield Christianity for political power. I know it. I talk to them. They have opinions that aren't based on any sort of thought, they just have absorbed the ideas of people who are touted as authorities.

[Sitting through lunch on Saturday with my in-laws, for example, and being told straightaway that I'm an "addict and demonically influenced" because of my particular struggles in life. Despite the fact that, if you would just measure me by any standard without knowing my situation, I would come up completely the opposite. And these are smart people, who graduated from Bucknell. You think they would collect their own evidence. But they believe these things because it's what they're taught, it's what is passed down to them.]

It's taken a good 20-30 years, for example, for the church to learn how to "love homosexuals." What's funny is that I'm not even sure why it was so hard in the first place. Homosexuals were never not people. We should love people. Why were homosexuals hated in the first place, and why did well-meaning people have to be beaten over the head again and again to learn how to treat others of other preferences and persuasions like human beings?

Even when you read the Bible, Jesus never had that issue. He never "dehumanized" people he thought were doing something wrong, so he never had to "relearn" how to love them. He... loved them from the first.

Something is very very wrong with the attitudes being passed down via authority and interpretation of the Bible, if people have to 'relearn' how to treat those they disagree with like human beings.

This is why Christianity is losing a hold in the States. Unbelievers, or those of other faiths, or disaffected Christians all can smell the taint and reject it.

unfortunately, it has created a backlash where the things Christians do that are right are being ignored as well.

The liberal intelligentsia in America constantly bend over backwards to point out that Islamic terrorists are not representative of Islam and that to blame Islam or Arabic peoples broadly is xenophobic and counterproductive. I wish they would extend the same courtesy to their Christian countrymen.

I agree with the sentiment, although I have never really been immersed in the liberal intelligentsia as a subculture and have no real idea who they are or what they truly think.

Wow, so people actually daring to bring up the manifestations of an aggressive pro-Christian (and anti-everyone else) atmosphere in the US (in some places) means Christianity has "fallen from grace"?

Well, of course I dare. I lived it for almost 40 years. It seems quite clear to me.

ETA: I'm inquiring what evidence one can use to assess that the church institutions have lost the will of the people (and if it exists, if it due to action of their making, constituting a "fall from grace").

1. Immerse yourself in conservative religious politics. THEY think they've fallen from grace. They see America as a battle they are LOSING. It's right out of the horse's mouth. It's why they've gotten more militant. They're fighting because they feel like they're being defeated.

2. Talk to the baby boomer generations. They'll complain about how awful the country has become since prayer has been kicked out of schools and evolution ushered into them. MTV. Rock and roll. Sex. Promiscuity on TV. Rated R movies. Vulgarity. Political scandal. The conservative churches (not even fundamentalist) I've been to all consider the US a fallen country, and God's favor has moved onto China and other countries around the world.

3. The whole huckabee thing? All the evangelicals were pulling for him... and they still lost. Yes, they're powerful. But in the 80's they might have actually WON. The televangelist movement and the conservative church felt very strong in the 80's. And... Reagan was president. Then Bush. Once Clinton came into office, many people in the church felt the country was lost. It was ironic to watch them all diss McCain because he wasn't an evangelical -- the was the only reason Huckabee lasted as long as he did, he wasn't really a strong candidate -- and now it looks like they're stuck with him.

4. Now Bush has been president for 8 years. He won mostly because he appealed to the Christian Right and got Bush's endorsement (and because Gore and Kerry were particularly unviable candidates). I remember being utterly turned off by how they bowed and scraped to him and touted his election as the best thing that happened to America, because he was "God's man." Talking to people in church, well-meaning people, they would still say really ignorant things about Bush, what he believed, how great he was... they just saw him as a "moral Christian who would put God back in control." (Basically a paraphrase of their thoughts.) Well, you can see where that has gone. Yet one more hope shattered, and it really didn't help their movement much because of Bush's War. This year, 2008, Dobson has lost a lot of his power, and so have the other political evangelicals. And many Christians I knew were very demoralized by the whole thing. Because once again, they "lost" ... Bush wasn't who they hoped he'd be.

I could go on and on about this. But I think my main point here is, I'm not the one saying Christians have "lost the culture"'; conservative Christians themselves have been saying it for a few decades.
 

cafe

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I'll second everything Jennifer said in the above post.

Personally, I'm glad about the 'fall from grace.' Christianity was never meant to be a form of government and America was always meant to have a secular government. Religion and government need to be kept separate because they corrupt one another.

I'm disgusted and outraged by the backwash of Darwinian fiscal conservatism that has polluted the Evangelical church because of it's alliance with the Republican party.

I think it's hypocritical and wrong to try to bully citizens into living as though they are Evangelical regardless of what they believe. It goes against the law of loving your brother as you love yourself.

I don't want to be persecuted or oppressed for my beliefs, but I think the way to keep my freedom is to give to others the same freedom I want for myself, not oppress other people for not believing the way I do. That was supposed to the whole point of this country.
 
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