Affirmative action - is it fair?

[Orangey]

What other factors are you thinking about?

Sports, alumni parents/family, wealth, the auspiciousness of one's high school, career goals, etc.,

 

[LEGERdeMAIN]

I think about this the same way I think about most awesome theories - They make perfect sense in theory, and humans screw them up in practice.

It makes sense to give someone a leg up after you have a 200 year head start--but instead they're just giving them an extra arm while pointing out how far behind minorities actually have been.

I don't think it works. I think it's a great try, but I think its flawed too much. Im sure it helps some people out, but I don't think it's doing the right kind of help.

Whites didn't have a 200 year head start. Every group of immigrants that arrived in America was discriminated against at some point, whether you're talking about European, Asians or Africans. No one gave the Irish, the German, the Chinese, etc better opportunities at the expense of other groups simply because they were mistreated, discriminated against and enslaved and all three of these groups succeed in the U.S. today on the same level as, for example, descendants of English immigrants. It's a matter of time, education and correcting the racist policies that prevent the 18 million black Americans receiving food stamps(not including recipients of other forms of government aid) from becoming self-sustaining individuals, i.e., getting educations, jobs, etc.

 

[LEGERdeMAIN]

Sports, alumni parents/family, wealth, the auspiciousness of one's high school, career goals, etc.,

Blacks receive 22% of athletic scholarships (2007, Dept. of Ed.)

 

[Thalassa]

Whites didn't have a 200 year head start. Every group of immigrants that arrived in America was discriminated against at some point, whether you're talking about European, Asians or Africans. No one gave the Irish, the German, the Chinese, etc better opportunities at the expense of other groups simply because they were mistreated, discriminated against and enslaved and all three of these groups succeed in the U.S. today on the same level as, for example, descendants of English immigrants. It's a matter of time, education and correcting the racist policies that prevent the 18 million black Americans receiving food stamps(not including recipients of other forms of government aid) from becoming self-sustaining individuals, i.e., getting educations, jobs, etc.

Cool story, bro. Cuz most welfare recipients are in fact white.

 

[LEGERdeMAIN]

Cool story, bro. Cuz most welfare recipients are in fact white.

*Sorry, just used wrong stats, too many windows open*.

Yeah, most recent statistics i could find shows blacks and whites receiving almost equal percentages of total welfare. This is one area that isn't kept up with very well, as far as statistics go.

Blacks are 13% of the population and whites are around 64%. Of course, based on your forum history, I don't expect you to actually counter any argument with one of your own, unless snarky, inane commentary and/or douchey "cool story brahs" are considered arguments now.

*Never said that the actual number of blacks on welfare was higher than whites, I wouldn't knowingly propagate any untruthful stereotypes. In fact, several other threads I've mentioned that there are more whites on welfare, but that makes sense, because most poor people are white, most rich people are white, most just about everything in real numbers is white because non-hispanic whites are a majority.

Edit: copy/pasted from wrong .gov page.

 

[swordpath]

It's not fair. For the same reason that it's not fair to decline somebody a job because of their race, gender, religion, etc.

 

[kyuuei]

*there are more whites on welfare, but that makes sense, because most poor people are white, most rich people are white, most just about everything in real numbers is white because non-hispanic whites are a majority.

I think a large part of welfare numbers are this alone.. Face-value, there will be much more white people on welfare because white people are the majority in America. In Houston, we have more Hispanics on welfare, but we also have more hispanics than whites. It's pretty simple.

I wasn't saying blacks have NEVER had opportunities for 200 years, or saying that whites haven't been supressed either. I was being a bit general and tongue-in-cheek. Although, I do feel black people were discriminated against fairly longer, and I don't recall Irish people being the main focus of slavery. I'm not sure why the Japanese somehow got ignored in all this either--since black people weren't locked into american camps just because they had squintier eyes during WW2.

Like I said, humans just screw it all up. "Racism sucks.. Lets fix it by LOOKING not racist, but having the philosophy based entirely on racism!" Instead of looking for a stable foundation to base programs on to help everything become more equalized, they just sort of kept patching things up until we have this ugly quilt that none of us wants to put on display, cold or not.

It's not fair. For the same reason that it's not fair to decline somebody a job because of their race, gender, religion, etc.

Just curiosity.. Would you still think it just as unfair if you were a potential recipient of it? And if you did, would it care or stop you from using the program?

 

[rav3n]

I don't believe in multi-generational reparations. It's over and now laws have been amended to reflect equality. Move on.

So no, I don't support affirmative action since it's not based on meritocracy.

 

[Stigmata]

That's assuming that without AA no "race" is advancing at the expense of the other. That under normal circumstances, when no one is being given special privileges like AA, everyone has equal opportunity regardless of race. Personally, I think that's incredibly naive, but my original point still stands. What you've said here is a direct denial that white privilege exists, which is why I said that the only way AA could be viewed as unfair is if you don't think white privilege exists. Which you obviously don't.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying it doesn't exist. What I'm saying is that while its prevalence in the societal structure of past generations was undeniably apparent, in modern society, while it does still exist, the actual effect it has is immeasurable, therefore it's entirely possible that the lingering effects are being overestimated and we're attributing certain circumstances within those communities as a result of being the underprivileged minority when in fact that may or may not be true at all.

Since White Privilege cannot be measured or quantified in any sense, how do we determine when affirmative action is no longer necessary? Does it exist to simply even the playing field, and if so, can we ever reach a point in which that field is equal without mediation from any sort of outside institution? Surely having it around indefinitely could theoretically create the same effect it was created to combat, except with a shifting in position of whom is in the position to benefit and at who's expense.

 

[LEGERdeMAIN]

I think a large part of welfare numbers are this alone.. Face-value, there will be much more white people on welfare because white people are the majority in America. In Houston, we have more Hispanics on welfare, but we also have more hispanics than whites. It's pretty simple.

I wasn't saying blacks have NEVER had opportunities for 200 years, or saying that whites haven't been supressed either. I was being a bit general and tongue-in-cheek. Although, I do feel black people were discriminated against fairly longer, and I don't recall Irish people being the main focus of slavery. I'm not sure why the Japanese somehow got ignored in all this either--since black people weren't locked into american camps just because they had squintier eyes during WW2.

Like I said, humans just screw it all up. "Racism sucks.. Lets fix it by LOOKING not racist, but having the philosophy based entirely on racism!" Instead of looking for a stable foundation to base programs on to help everything become more equalized, they just sort of kept patching things up until we have this ugly quilt that none of us wants to put on display, cold or not.



Just curiosity.. Would you still think it just as unfair if you were a potential recipient of it? And if you did, would it care or stop you from using the program?

I currently use Federal Pell Grants to help with paying tuition. If I qualified for other programs that might help me get through college quicker, receive better grades, etc, then yes, I would use them, but I don't. I know, because I tried last year when I couldn't find work and emptied out my savings and became officially "Poor" after missing the poverty line by 2K. There's a whole class of people who are not counted as unemployed when they're unemployed, don't receive most kinds of welfare when they're poor, cannot receive unemployment benefits because they're self-employed and can't get food stamps, housing assistance(except homeless shelters), etc, etc, etc. But...I don't have any drug convictions so I do qualify for Pell grants.

I don't have a problem with social welfare as long as it's short term and is being used as a springboard to improving ones life and isn't based on race, gender and breeding proficiency.