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  1. #51
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by reason View Post
    Oooo ... good argument :P
    I know, go figure in regards to that crazy Lee guy...
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  2. #52
    Senior Member reason's Avatar
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    Statistical disparities and individual injustices are not the same thing. The government should not be in the business of trying to prevent or compensate for statistical disparities, and whether it should prevent or compensate for individual injustices depends on the specific circumstance. Not every way that people mistreat each other is against the law and nor should be.
    A criticism that can be brought against everything ought not to be brought against anything.

  3. #53
    Reason vs Being ragashree's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orangey View Post
    Having a non-confrontational discussion is not necessarily my goal. I said productive. If we're going to have a productive discussion/argument, then each participant must say something which adds something substantial or new to the discourse. Of course, what counts as substantial is ill-defined at this point, but on a common-sense level it is not difficult to determine when someone's comment has added nothing to the discourse. As your comment did not add anything, I was able to deduce that it could only have possibly been intended to provoke. Is that clear enough for you?
    Interestingly verbose way of rationalising your own incomprehension of what I was saying to start with and subsequent outburst, thanks. I think you imply that you want to have a non-confrontational discussion, or something amounting to that (nitpicking over the precise choice of adjective in a case like this is tiresome) when you complain that the other person is provocative.

    Further, as you are not my mother, I would ask you to refrain from lecturing me on what language I can and cannot use. If there's a problem with anything I've said, the mods will notify me, thanks.
    Did you think I was your mother? Never mind the mods, I was asking you to use more appropriate and mature language, particularly if you want to be able to have the meaningful discussion you claimed to be craving. If you choose not to after being asked, that indicates the likely value of continuing the discussion with you.

    Okay? You've managed to say exactly what I said in an unnecessarily verbose way. Congratulations.
    I was expanding on my statement earlier that this was already obvious to those who understood the issues.

    What argument have I made? The most I've said is that "personally, I think that's incredibly naive [to believe that white privilege doesn't exist]", as an aside to another comment, but I didn't expand upon that or even attempt to argue that position.
    Come again? You really don't think I'm naive enough not to see that you are implying it by your approach here? Your position at any rate is obvious, and you seem to be justifying it with reference to the whole concept of white privilege. I think it's too ideologically loaded to be used in that way (except to say that this is why I have my opinion).

    I don't know why you've honed in on my posts in particular, but unless you have anything better to add than deconstructions of arguments I never even made, then kindly fuck off.
    "Honing in on your posts," because I made one short post and one longer one to explain the shorter one after you threw a tantrum at me? That comes across as a bit paranoid, frankly. I still don't think you yourself were adding much there except a false (or redundant) line of reasoning as I went to some trouble to explain in my last post; though I appreciate from your responses so far that you would rather swear at me than actually discuss anything. That speaks for itself, really. I'm therefore not going to waste more time on you if you're not going to even try to behave in a reasonable manner; it's simply pointless and will rapidly become boring.

    Erm's point is more important to the discussion than this bickering as far as I'm concerned in any case, so I'm quite happy to leave it here if you want to.
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  4. #54
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    Affirmative action that ensures a percentage of minority groups be included in higher educational programs is definitely BULLSHIT. If your academic credentials are poor, you don't deserve to get in.

  5. #55
    Blah Orangey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ragashree View Post
    Interestingly verbose way of rationalising your own incomprehension of what I was saying to start with and subsequent outburst, thanks.
    What you were saying "to start with" was this:

    Quote Originally Posted by ragashree View Post
    Are you trying to get kudos for stating the obvious here...?
    This is neither difficult to understand nor substantive as regards the subject under discussion. It can ONLY BE meant for provocation.

    You can continue to believe that I'm rationalizing, but the fact of the matter is that what you said was pointless.

    Unless you want to clarify why you think it was important to tell me that what I was saying was so obvious, even after admitting that "it might not be so obvious to other people" (and snidely insinuating motives on my part), I will continue to believe that what you said was indeed intended to provoke.

    Quote Originally Posted by ragashree View Post
    I think you imply that you want to have a non-confrontational discussion, or something amounting to that (nitpicking over the precise choice of adjective in a case like this is tiresome) when you complain that the other person is provocative.
    Provocation is okay as long as it is not the ONLY purpose of the post. It even says so in the forum rules. Your post, unfortunately, contained nothing else, which is why I complained.

    Quote Originally Posted by ragashree View Post
    Did you think I was your mother?
    No, but you obviously thought you were mine.

    Quote Originally Posted by ragashree View Post
    Never mind the mods, I was asking you to use more appropriate and mature language, particularly if you want to be able to have the meaningful discussion you claimed to be craving. If you choose not to after being asked, that indicates the likely value of continuing the discussion with you.
    1. There never was any value to be had in this exchange between us, as you started it off by saying something inane.
    2. A meaningful discussion can be had with or without the foul words that seem to offend you so much.
    3. When I indicated that I wanted to have a more meaningful conversation, I intended it as a criticism of what I viewed as meaningless comments on your part. I have already stated this several times.

    Quote Originally Posted by ragashree View Post
    I was expanding on my statement earlier that this was already obvious to those who understood the issues.
    No sh**, Sherlock. And in the process you merely repeated what I had already said. Don't you see why that's pointless?

    Me: If X then Y.
    You: Well that's obvious.
    Me: So what? I just wanted to point it out to people who may not know.
    You: But [insert verbose repetition of "if X then Y."]
    Me (now): Again, so what? All you've done is repeat what I said.

    Quote Originally Posted by ragashree View Post
    Come again? You really don't think I'm naive enough not to see that you are implying it by your approach here?
    I may be implying it, but I haven't made any argument for or against it. If you want to accuse me of using underhanded rhetorical tactics, that's fine. But you can't attack an argument I never made.

    Quote Originally Posted by ragashree View Post
    Your position at any rate is obvious,
    If it's obvious then it's because, as I told you in my last post, I have declared my position plainly. I haven't made any arguments for it (or against the positions of others, for that matter), but I have stated it.

    Quote Originally Posted by ragashree View Post
    and you seem to be justifying it with reference to the whole concept of white privilege. I think it's too ideologically loaded to be used in that way (except to say that this is why I have my opinion).
    I've not attempted to justify anything. The bolded is exactly what I've done.

    Quote Originally Posted by ragashree View Post
    "Honing in on your posts," because I made one short post and one longer one to explain the shorter one after you threw a tantrum at me? That comes across as a bit paranoid, frankly.
    Because the post you originally quoted of mine did not contain an argument, and yet you proceeded to (1) point out that it was so obvious (as if to devalue what I said, for whatever reason), and (2) accuse me of circular reasoning, even though there was no attempt at a line of reasoning present in the post! Can't you see why that's confusing?

    Quote Originally Posted by ragashree View Post
    I still don't think you yourself were adding much there except a false (or redundant) line of reasoning as I went to some trouble to explain in my last post;
    Again, what reasoning? Stating that "the only way AA could be viewed as unfair is if you don't think white privilege exists" is not a line of reasoning. Are you crazy?

    Quote Originally Posted by ragashree View Post
    though I appreciate from your responses so far that you would rather swear at me than actually discuss anything. That speaks for itself, really. I'm therefore not going to waste more time on you if you're not going to even try to behave in a reasonable manner; it's simply pointless and will rapidly become boring.
    If all that you gathered from any of my posts to you was that I was swearing at you, then either you fail at reading comprehension or you're ignoring what I'm saying.

    And since when is the use of swear words itself a sign that one is not "behaving reasonably?" You must be a sensitive Susan.

    Quote Originally Posted by ragashree View Post
    Erm's point is more important to the discussion than this bickering as far as I'm concerned in any case, so I'm quite happy to leave it here if you want to.
    If that were true, then you wouldn't have engaged me in bickering for as long as you have. Let's not pretend, shall we?
    Artes, Scientia, Veritasiness

  6. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by reason View Post
    Statistical disparities and individual injustices are not the same thing. The government should not be in the business of trying to prevent or compensate for statistical disparities, and whether it should prevent or compensate for individual injustices depends on the specific circumstance. Not every way that people mistreat each other is against the law and nor should be.
    Thank you.

  7. #57
    Blah Orangey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nerd Girl View Post
    Affirmative action that ensures a percentage of minority groups be included in higher educational programs is definitely BULLSHIT. If your academic credentials are poor, you don't deserve to get in.
    That implies that academic credentials are the only factors that count towards whether one is admitted to a certain school or not. Unfortunately (or fortunately, depending on your perspective), that is simply not the case.
    Artes, Scientia, Veritasiness

  8. #58
    Senior Member LEGERdeMAIN's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marmie Dearest View Post
    Yes, and it's mostly middle class white people who think it's unfair.
    No, lower middle and down think it's unfair because those are the people most affected by it. It's not a big issue for upper middle and $rich$ whites, although they may also disagree with some affirmative action policies it's not going to be as big an issue as property taxes, income taxes or estate taxes, etc, etc. I realize the application of affirmative action does cost money and it does indirectly affect middle and upper classes through income taxes, but they aren't being widely discriminated against because of affirmative action and they usually have more options for finding jobs when they get turned down to meet some racist quota.

    Poor to middle class whites are discriminated against for what seems like absolutely no reason. How is a white individual making 8000 per year different than a black individual making 8000 per year if they have the same level of education, same family background, etc, etc? Anything besides skin color? Race shouldn't be a factor, especially when it comes to getting a job or receiving welfare. It's unfortunate that we have a government that goes from institutionized slavery, to institutionalized racism in favor of one racial group to institutionalized racism in favor of another.

    If you want to help blacks who are struggling then change felony disenfranchisement laws, make laws that make discrimination against anyone who's committed a felony or misdemeanor and has served time in jail, prison, probation/parole, paid restitution illegal. You have about 15% of all black men who are forced to work at low-income jobs(illegal workers compete for the same jobs) because of past convictions, many of whom can't go to college, since a drug conviction automatically bars you from recieving grants and any conviction prevents you from working for most national, regional and multinational businesses and they're not going to make enough money to pay for college or other job training working for min. wage at mcdonalds. That 15% is expected to keep going up, btw. To add to that, 24% of blacks have "below basic" literacy(compared to 7% of whites), 30% of welfare recipients are black(double the percentage of the population they represent), etc, etc, etc....

    If we focused on income, education(ie literacy rates, highest level of completion, etc) and citizenship instead of skin color and type of genitals, you'll see that blacks will still benefit from government assistance while cutting down the abuse of the system by middle-class women and illegal immigrants/aliens. The difference would be that it'd be fair...because it'd no longer be racist, just nationalist and socialist.

    One more thing that is related to affirmative action and welfare...although only obliquely: Forced sterilization of habitual, low-income, uneducated breeders would help cut down the costs and negative social consquences of the perpetual cycle that exists within this specific group of people. If you have four kids by four different fathers who don't pay child support and you've never made more than 10k in your life maybe you shouldn't be allowed to have kids? If not sterilization then we need to stop giving incentives to people to have more kids than they can afford. If you know many poor women you might've noticed that quite a few like to have lots and lots of kids, not just because they're uneducated or stupid or ignorant of birth control methods, but because they know that having kids with only a part-time min. wage job to support them = govt. $$$$ and free food. It's almost as good as getting married to someone with a $50k/year job.
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  9. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orangey View Post
    That implies that academic credentials are the only factors that count towards whether one is admitted to a certain school or not. Unfortunately (or fortunately, depending on your perspective), that is simply not the case.
    What other factors are you thinking about?

  10. #60
    Emperor/Dictator kyuuei's Avatar
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    I think about this the same way I think about most awesome theories - They make perfect sense in theory, and humans screw them up in practice.

    It makes sense to give someone a leg up after you have a 200 year head start--but instead they're just giving them an extra arm while pointing out how far behind minorities actually have been.

    I don't think it works. I think it's a great try, but I think its flawed too much. Im sure it helps some people out, but I don't think it's doing the right kind of help.
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