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  1. #41
    Senior Member Santosha's Avatar
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  2. #42
    Reason vs Being ragashree's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orangey View Post
    Perhaps it's obvious to you, but I don't think a lot of the naysayers in this thread really think of it from that perspective. Plus if people bit on this comment, then the discussion would be steered toward arguments about white privilege, which, I'm sorry, are far more fucking interesting and constructive than people whining about "fairness" and saying the same thing over and over again.

    <<edited>>
    Please try to use more mature language than this, particularly when directing that language towards another poster (not just myself). Also, using this kind of language towards someone who has not used it towards yourself, then accusing the person you are directing it at of saying things "that don't add to the discussion, and can only serve to provoke", comes across as hypocritical and frankly rather irrational, if having a non-confrontational and productive discussion is your true goal as you seem to imply. What you mean, I think, is that you felt provoked by what I said and decided that this justified the use of childish language; sometimes it's better to just own one's own feelings rather than attacking the other person and making yourself look foolish in the process. Anyway, I'm going to try to explain myself more fully this time in the hope that you manage to refrain from further outbursts of this nature.

    Well, this makes absolutely no sense, but okay.
    You've implicitly assumed the premise that white privilege does exist in making the conclusion that affirmative action is fair, so far as I can see. This is to say that you have invoked an ideological construct upon which the policy of affirmative action is founded and argued to be fair, in order to ascribe the quality of fairness to affirmative action, without looking at anything outside this belief system or attempting to prove the validity of the premise, which you seem to think should be self-evident. This is a circular reasoning process.

    Also, since the equitability of affirmative action is already argued largely on the grounds of "white privilege" being a real entity, it stands to reason that those who support the concept will also support affirmative action, and that those who are against will probably not. It takes considerable mental gymnastics to think affirmative action is unfair if one accepts the concept of white privilege, and conversely it is difficult to see that anyone who rejects the concept of white privilege will see affirmative action as fair.

    I therefore don't think a statement like yours and the argument you make from that position later is saying anything much at all except to identify who is in which group, which is not difficult to work out already with the most basic knowledge of the issues. If that was all you were attempting to do, then fine, I accept that it may not be so obvious to some people; but it still seems to me that you are indulging in circular reasoning by trying to adduce truth values (about what is fair and unfair) purely from the belief system itself.
    Last edited by Bellflower; 08-05-2011 at 09:51 PM. Reason: edited quote
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  3. #43
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    Yes, and it's mostly middle class white people who think it's unfair.

  4. #44
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    It's not fair, obviously. That's in the definition.

    Whether it's good or bad is the more important question, and possibly what is really meant by the OP.

    Not that I'm going to answer that question, I will say that stereotype threat is a proven reality, side by side with racism and white privilege. If those are at least partly caused/perpetuated by a lack of exposure to certain minorities in certain roles, whether career roles, media roles and such, affirmative action has at least a theoretical chance of removing those problems permanently, through mere temporary enforcement. It puts more of those minorities in those roles, leading to exposure, countering those initial problems. That then leads to those minorities less inflicted by those problems, thus more likely to get into those roles without affirmative action. A positive cycle, which could remove the very need for affirmative action, thus providing a permanent solution.

  5. #45
    Doesn't Read Your Posts Haight's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by YWIR View Post
    Do you believe affirmative action in its current form is fair?
    Do you believe that marginalizing blacks for two hundred plus years was fair?

    If not, what are you going to do about it?
    "The only time I'm wrong is when I'm questioning myself."
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  6. #46
    Senior Member reason's Avatar
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    It's unfair to individuals with diverse talents, aspirations, goals, and feelings so to be more fair to abstract categories of people based only on the colour of the skin or the shape of their genitals. So yes, it's "fair."
    A criticism that can be brought against everything ought not to be brought against anything.

  7. #47
    Blah Orangey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ragashree View Post
    Please try to use more mature language than this, particularly when directing that language towards another poster (not just myself). Also, using this kind of language towards someone who has not used it towards yourself, then accusing the person you are directing it at of saying things "that don't add to the discussion, and can only serve to provoke", comes across as hypocritical and frankly rather irrational, if having a non-confrontational and productive discussion is your true goal as you seem to imply. What you mean, I think, is that you felt provoked by what I said and decided that this justified the use of childish language; sometimes it's better to just own one's own feelings rather than attacking the other person and making yourself look foolish in the process. Anyway, I'm going to try to explain myself more fully this time in the hope that you manage to refrain from further outbursts of this nature.
    Having a non-confrontational discussion is not necessarily my goal. I said productive. If we're going to have a productive discussion/argument, then each participant must say something which adds something substantial or new to the discourse. Of course, what counts as substantial is ill-defined at this point, but on a common-sense level it is not difficult to determine when someone's comment has added nothing to the discourse. As your comment did not add anything, I was able to deduce that it could only have possibly been intended to provoke. Is that clear enough for you?

    Further, as you are not my mother, I would ask you to refrain from lecturing me on what language I can and cannot use. If there's a problem with anything I've said, the mods will notify me, thanks.

    Quote Originally Posted by ragashree View Post
    You've implicitly assumed the premise that white privilege does exist in making the conclusion that affirmative action is fair, so far as I can see. This is to say that you have invoked an ideological construct upon which the policy of affirmative action is founded and argued to be fair, in order to ascribe the quality of fairness to affirmative action, without looking at anything outside this belief system or attempting to prove the validity of the premise, which you seem to think should be self-evident. This is a circular reasoning process.
    I have no idea what you're talking about. I never made any such argument.

    Quote Originally Posted by ragashree View Post
    Also, since the equitability of affirmative action is already argued largely on the grounds of "white privilege" being a real entity, it stands to reason that those who support the concept will also support affirmative action, and that those who are against will probably not. It takes considerable mental gymnastics to think affirmative action is unfair if one accepts the concept of white privilege, and conversely it is difficult to see that anyone who rejects the concept of white privilege will see affirmative action as fair.
    Okay? You've managed to say exactly what I said in an unnecessarily verbose way. Congratulations.

    Quote Originally Posted by ragashree View Post
    I therefore don't think a statement like yours and the argument you make from that position later is saying anything much at all except to identify who is in which group, which is not difficult to work out already with the most basic knowledge of the issues. If that was all you were attempting to do, then fine, I accept that it may not be so obvious to some people; but it still seems to me that you are indulging in circular reasoning by trying to adduce truth values (about what is fair and unfair) purely from the belief system itself.
    What argument have I made? The most I've said is that "personally, I think that's incredibly naive [to believe that white privilege doesn't exist]", as an aside to another comment, but I didn't expand upon that or even attempt to argue that position.
    Last edited by Bellflower; 08-05-2011 at 09:48 PM. Reason: mod edit
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  8. #48
    Doesn't Read Your Posts Haight's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by reason View Post
    It's unfair to individuals with diverse talents, aspirations, goals, and feelings so to be more fair to abstract categories of people based only on the colour of the skin or the shape of their genitals. So yes, it's "fair."
    There was this dude named Lee that used to write abstract, unreasonable crap like this all the time. Maybe you should look him up.
    "The only time I'm wrong is when I'm questioning myself."
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  9. #49
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    To quote edgar, it's bullshit.

    Having to compete as hard as we have to to get a job (esp. these days) is one of the things that makes our economic system robust.

  10. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by Haight View Post
    There was this dude named Lee that used to write abstract, unreasonable crap like this all the time. Maybe you should look him up.
    Oooo ... good argument :P
    A criticism that can be brought against everything ought not to be brought against anything.

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