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  1. #31
    Nips away your dignity Fluffywolf's Avatar
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    Ideally, no. But hear this out.

    Minorities won't be hired quickly by employers especially in customer relations departments, because in many business', customers still have strong opinions about minorities and this could go at the cost of revenue. This is rascism, or just business, but it's above all unfair and unfortunately the current situation. (Much less so for black people nowadays though, but there are plenty of minorities that still fall in that category almost in all cases)

    Putting minorities in more jobs, allowing them to prove themselves to the general public and integrate wholly into the communities with unreserved acceptance, then a generation or two later, there will no longer be a need for this, as employers won't feel compelled to pass up on hiring minorities. Because the minorities, being accepted by the general population, are no longer a threat to their revenue.

    It's a long term solution, but not one that should be ignored.

    I'm not wholly against it.
    ~Self-depricating Megalomaniacal Superwolf

  2. #32
    Ghost Monkey Soul Vizconde's Avatar
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    I'm OK with the general concept of taking affirmative steps to address racial, gender or disability prejudice (i.e. promoting job opportunities at black/female colleges/locations etc.)...but am not OK with quotas absent narrow exceptions in extreme cases (workplaces with an actual history of discrimination)
    I redact everything I have written or will write on this forum prior to, subsequent with and or after the fact of its writing. For entertainment purposes only and not to be taken seriously nor literally.

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  3. #33
    Senior Member Viridian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orangey View Post
    Only if you view "countering a social ill" as unfair to begin with, so this is a bit of a circular statement.
    Okay, I think I get your point. It is fair, it's just not "fair" in the sense that, say, court proceedings are supposed to be - it's fair due to two different forces at work instead of one. Does that make sense?

  4. #34
    Nips away your dignity Fluffywolf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Viridian View Post
    Okay, I think I get your point. It is fair, it's just not "fair" in the sense that, say, court proceedings are supposed to be - it's fair due to two different forces at work instead of one. Does that make sense?

    Is if fair to give +1 to minorities while giving 0 to general populace? Suppose not.

    But what if the general populace is at 0 and the minorities are at -1. And the result would be that both would be on the 0 afterwards, is it still unfair?

    ~Self-depricating Megalomaniacal Superwolf

  5. #35
    Senior Member jimrckhnd's Avatar
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    The question in my mind is "what is fair". Fair on the individual level? Fair on the societal level? Affirmative action might well mean that I as an individual might lose out if say an essentially equally qualified women and I were going for the same job. On the other hand on the macro scale this might be more than fair. Moreover, I must also consider that I have built in advantages as a white male that in fact essentially acts as an affirmative action program in and of themselves: it is useful to recall the biggest affirmative action program in US history was keeping women and people of color out of certain professions.
    Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large groups

  6. #36
    Blah Orangey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ragashree View Post
    Are you trying to get kudos for stating the obvious here...?
    Perhaps it's obvious to you, but I don't think a lot of the naysayers in this thread really think of it from that perspective. Plus if people bit on this comment, then the discussion would be steered toward arguments about white privilege, which, I'm sorry, are far more fucking interesting and constructive than people whining about "fairness" and saying the same thing over and over again.

    ...Your comment here is useless to the discussion and can only serve to provoke.

    Quote Originally Posted by ragashree View Post
    Or just indulging yourself by falling back on the very fallacy you're objecting to others using?

    Yes, I saw what you did there.
    Well, this makes absolutely no sense, but okay.

    Quote Originally Posted by Viridian View Post
    Okay, I think I get your point. It is fair, it's just not "fair" in the sense that, say, court proceedings are supposed to be - it's fair due to two different forces at work instead of one. Does that make sense?
    I think so. I just meant to point out that "countering a social ill" is pretty much always a fair concept (if fair means "free from bias, dishonesty, or injustice") unless you don't think there's a social ill to be countered. So to say that "fairness" and "countering a social ill" are distinct is to already presume that there is no social ill to be countered, which struck me as a bit circular.

    Quote Originally Posted by jimrckhnd View Post
    I must also consider that I have built in advantages as a white male that in fact essentially acts as an affirmative action program in and of themselves: it is useful to recall the biggest affirmative action program in US history was keeping women and people of color out of certain professions.
    Yes, exactly.
    Last edited by Bellflower; 08-05-2011 at 09:47 PM. Reason: mod edit
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  7. #37
    Nerd King Usurper Edgar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fluffywolf View Post
    Ideally, no. But hear this out.

    Minorities won't be hired quickly by employers especially in customer relations departments, because in many business', customers still have strong opinions about minorities and this could go at the cost of revenue. This is rascism, or just business, but it's above all unfair and unfortunately the current situation. (Much less so for black people nowadays though, but there are plenty of minorities that still fall in that category almost in all cases)

    Putting minorities in more jobs, allowing them to prove themselves to the general public and integrate wholly into the communities with unreserved acceptance, then a generation or two later, there will no longer be a need for this, as employers won't feel compelled to pass up on hiring minorities. Because the minorities, being accepted by the general population, are no longer a threat to their revenue.

    It's a long term solution, but not one that should be ignored.

    I'm not wholly against it.
    Nobody is given a chance to "prove themselves" simply because the govt offers subsidies for their retention.

    What usually happens is that the affirmative action hires are quarantined into some obscure HR subdivision, while their employer gets govt largesse for having an X amount of minorities.

    Affirmative action is a round about "slavery reparations" scheme, and even then, the politicians decided to add Hispanics to that program simply to gain their votes.

    TL;DR: Affirmative Action is bullshit
    Listen to me, baby, you got to understand, you're old enough to learn the makings of a man.

  8. #38
    Senior Member Beargryllz's Avatar
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    is it fair?
    In a word, no

  9. #39
    Nips away your dignity Fluffywolf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Edgar View Post
    Nobody is given a chance to "prove themselves" simply because the govt offers subsidies for their retention.

    What usually happens is that the affirmative action hires are quarantined into some obscure HR subdivision, while their employer gets govt largesse for having an X amount of minorities.
    Oh, you're right that left-wing hobbies like these are thoroughly abused throughout the world because they are not properly orchestrated and overseen by abled government bodies, but the idea should be to put minorities in public positions, having every days people to deal with them and learn to accept them as a human being. In essence, I do like that concept.

    Anyway, integration has never been and never will be an easy process.
    ~Self-depricating Megalomaniacal Superwolf

  10. #40
    Nerd King Usurper Edgar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fluffywolf View Post
    Oh, you're right that left-wing hobbies like these are thoroughly abused throughout the world because they are not properly orchestrated and overseen by abled government bodies, but the idea ...
    Here's another good idea: From each according to his ability, to each according to his need

    Too bad communism doesn't work when it put into practice, partly for the reasons already mentioned by you.
    Listen to me, baby, you got to understand, you're old enough to learn the makings of a man.

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