Degrees of Feminism

[Ivy]

You'll want to stop that.

Indeed, Marm. It might make you less attractive to insecure dudes, and really, isn't that the most important thing?

 

[Thalassa]

Perhaps a feminist could explain something to me...

How in the world can 50% of a population be a "minority group" (and not just by numbers, in any sense of the word..). I've always thought it a bit weird that a group that in some cases out number the out-group could be oppressed. If so, how? Based on physicality? The days of brute force being a major factor in survival are long gone. If women are treated differently (which they are, I'm not saying that they aren't) wouldn't it be due to vestiges of what it meant to be human? How can you dislike a people for being who they evolved to be? Is it not within every man's nature to "protect women"? What women see as "them being owned" I've always seen as "men protecting women". From what? From the harsh realities of the world! Women, I think, have always been considered "too special" or "too pure" to participate in the brutality that the world has to offer. Why any women would willingly choose that is beyond me...but then again, why I choose to participate in the brutality of the world is a mystery to me as well..

If the argument is "Well, I don't want or need protection" then my response is simple; "Well, I want to give it to you". Of course, if you feel that you want room to grow and develop and "be your own person" that's all well and good too..but I don't see how it's a bad thing to want to provide for a woman. It's baffling...it really is. Perhaps the application of this want is a bit off, and perhaps we have taken it to extremes in the past (we are men after all, extremes is what we do..lol), but how can they're be anything but appreciation for this? What, we love you "too much"?

Feminism, it seems, is nothing more than just a body of thought that can be reduced to this "Men don't understand what women want.." to which the answer is "Well, duh you keep on being dissatisfied with whatever we provide! Do you want us to leave you alone? Do you want us to not provide for you? No? Then why don't you just tell us, in no uncertain terms, what the hell you want?!?"

"Oh well, it's complicated.."

I think every man is well aware of just how complicated it is.

And I love how I'm going to be accused of being a misogynist when my intentions are nothing but pure. It seems the definition of misogyny is "loving women to a fault". What fault? Whatever fault the women of the day feel like saying is a fault..

I mean, men went to the moon! To the moon! How can we go to the moon but still not be able to understand women? You want to know how? They are understandable and they are doing it on purpose.

ughh..im done...I really don't want to post this..but I will anyway..

Being a protector and a provider doesn't bother me at all, and I'm more comfortable with a traditional female role that way...but that's just me. Apparently not all women want that.

Misogyny to me is someone who regards women as lesser than themselves, and it has nothing to do with loving women to a fault...it has to do with hating women, using women, objectifying women, treating them like pets and objects.

I'm not sure how you could confuse the two things, but I do agree that some women get upset about being protected or provided for, and I don't at all. I appreciate it when men open doors for me and all that other kind of stuff.

 

[Thalassa]

Indeed, Marm. It might make you less attractive to insecure dudes, and really, isn't that the most important thing?

I mean, all I want in life is male approval. Even the approval of males I want nothing to do with, just by virtue of them being male.

 

[jimrckhnd]

It's not interesting at all that she doesn't use the same behavior with other men. She's not interested in those other men, and whatever insecurity she has or jealousy only pertains to her significant other.

Genearally insecurity and jealousy are at the heart of controlling behavior. And of course the more out of control and unreasonable it is, the more abusive it becomes, like in terms of violence and things.

Well its only not interesting if you don't care about the source and motivation of the behavior. Implicit in your argument that "She's not interested in those other men" is that other men have nothing to offer her AND/OR her behavior is motivated by some relationship issue. Hrm... you'd think she'd attempt to manipulate other people around her: it seems (to me anyway) odd that this would be the only situation she uses these tactics. I've never seen her with her family so no help there.

 

[jimrckhnd]

I mean, all I want in life is male approval. Even the approval of males I want nothing to do with, just by virtue of them being male.

One of the nicest things about the changes in women's expectations in US society in the past 40 odd years has been the number of women who have arrived at a place where they don't need male approval in the general sense and in the specific sense they only seek the approval of those who also approve of them and, well, to the hell with them.

Self confidence in women is an attractive trait IMO. But then having a decent level of self confidence myself, self confident women don't threaten my self image.

 

[Thalassa]

Well its only not interesting if you don't care about the source and motivation of the behavior. Implicit in your argument that "She's not interested in those other men" is that other men have nothing to offer her AND/OR her behavior is motivated by some relationship issue. Hrm... you'd think she'd attempt to manipulate other people around her: it seems (to me anyway) odd that this would be the only situation she uses these tactics. I've never seen her with her family so no help there.

Maybe it's because I've been in a relationship with a controlling abuser, but I just happen to know what a text book abuser is like, and they can be fine upstanding members of society who are nice to their friends and everybody likes. Doctors, lawyers, and politicians can be abusers. The main difference is that women generally are not violent as frequently as men are, and therefore men can get away more easily, which is why this is historically portrayed as a woman's issue, but jealousy and insecurity also are at the heart at controlling behavior in females past a certain point. I mean, some controlling behaviors are just linked to personality, I think often Js want to control their environment, but when you're talking in terms of her actually cutting off his relationships with others, that's getting into the shady territory of unhealthy.

Yep, she's not in love with those men. I don't know it troubles you that she doesn't think those men have anything to offer her, because she specifically wants her mate, not those other guys.

 

[Thalassa]

Also, sometimes people can get that way, I should mention, when they have ACTUAL REASON to fear cheating from a certain individual...when they're in a relationship with someone who does things to make them feel insecure, or who has gone out on them, etc...they can become insecure and controlling for warranted reasons.

However, if in the case of your friend, if he's always been faithful to her and gives her no reason to suspect him of cheating, then yeah her behavior is a kind of abusive.

 

[jimrckhnd]

Maybe it's because I've been in a relationship with a controlling abuser, but I just happen to know what a text book abuser is like, and they can be fine upstanding members of society who are nice to their friends and everybody likes.

No question. Some of the worst present the best public face.

Yep, she's not in love with those men. I don't know it troubles you that she doesn't think those men have anything to offer her, because she specifically wants her mate, not those other guys.

It only troubles me in the sense that I see it as a tactic to get what she wants. Ergo, it seems odd that she would only use it in a VERY specific situation. You on the other hand seem to be saying that would be the case because of underlying relationship dynamics. If so, it’s less a tactic than a symptom. That is interesting as the only abusive people I've known of have been assholes in just about all aspects of their lives once you got past the superficial presentation. Those have all been men so maybe that skews my perceptions of the issue.

 

[OrangeAppled]

I agree with the very basic concept of feminism, which is that women should have equal rights as men socially, economically, politically, etc.
Also the idea that women as a whole are not inferior to men as a whole, which is why we should be afforded equal rights & evaluated as individuals. Anyone who thinks this attitude has always existed & that feminism did not alter people's views in this regard must only have learned some seriously revisionist history. Anyone who thinks the old attitudes don't still lurk in some people's minds & don't still affect women is naive & blind.

Anyway, I don't think all aspects of gender roles or traditional relationships are anti-feminist. I think feminism ideally looks out for the rights of men also; it does not promote that women are superior. I think it also does not imply that men & women in general don't have some natural differences & that acknowledging these is wrong.

 

[Thalassa]

It only troubles me in the sense that I see it as a tactic to get what she wants. Ergo, it seems odd that she would only use it in a VERY specific situation. You on the other hand seem to be saying that would be the case because of underlying relationship dynamics. If so, it’s less a tactic than a symptom. That is interesting as the only abusive people I've known of have been assholes in just about all aspects of their lives once you got past the superficial presentation. Those have all been men so maybe that skews my perceptions of the issue.

She's just jealous and insecure and it centers around him in particular. I've seen this a lot both with men and women....she probably doesn't even mean to be abusive in any way, she's probably scared of losing him for some reason, and since she's so nice otherwise, it may not ever escalate.

On the other hand, someone who keeps someone away from their family is going too far. I can see maybe her getting jealous if he was like a playa before they started dating, or he cheated on her before, or if he went to wild parties a lot and left her at home...but keeping someone away from their family is not okay. That's just controlling.

 

[Ivy]

I think it's definitely a relationship-specific issue.

The only abusive people you've known of are the ones you know are abusive. The ones Marm is talking about tend not to go public with their abusiveness. Neither do their victims.

 

[Helios]

Indeed, Marm. It might make you less attractive to insecure dudes, and really, isn't that the most important thing?

My comment didn't pertain to attractiveness. Surely you don't think I'm "insecure" because I disagree with Feminism?

 

[Thalassa]

Surely you don't think I'm "insecure" because I disagree with Feminism?

I do. Especially since you made the comment that I'd better stop that.

 

[jimrckhnd]

Well one thing I'm reasonably sure of is "Joe" isn't a player or cheated on her (of course I can't be 100% certain). They are a young couple and perhaps she had previous SOs that cheated on her (to give her the benifit of the doubt).

The unfortunate part is that I expect that one day he'll get sick of it and there is going to be one heck of an explosion: he'll probably wait until he is past discussing it w/o alot of bitterness and anger and she'll be confused about how fast he turned angry.

This is just one of the reasons I really am not a big fan of 25 year olds getting married - esp. when they are fresh out of school and don't have much life experiance.

 

[Helios]

I do. Especially since you made the comment that I'd better stop that.

Certainly: you'd better stop holding, and being vocal about, a ludicrous ideology. How this is indicative of "insecurity" remains an enigma.

A similar remark would have been made had you claimed that you were a vocal creationist.

 

[jimrckhnd]

I do. Especially since you made the comment that I'd better stop that.

Oh snap!

What was that old saying? "Men of quality don't fear women of equality"? Something like that anways.

 

[Thalassa]

Certainly: you'd better stop holding, and being vocal about, a ludicrous ideology. How this is indicative of "insecurity" remains an enigma.

HAHAHA. I'm not going to change my ideology for some stranger on the Internet. You're not even making a valid argument.

Thanks for your time though, bro. By the way, if you tell me what to do, I'll tell you what to do: go read some history books, particularly ones about the state of society rather than about war or conquest.

 

[kyuuei]

I don't know about ya'll, but I was panicking just watching that commercial. The airport? Under construction? They're going to need more than tires to keep that car safe.

 

[Helios]

HAHAHA. I'm not going to change my ideology for some stranger on the Internet. You're not even making a valid argument.

I didn't suggest that you ought to change your mind just because I have recommended that you do so. I've not made an "argument" because no argument has been (politely) requested.

Thanks for your time though, bro.

I'm not your brother.

By the way, if you tell me what to do, I'll tell you what to do: go read some history books, particularly ones about the state of society rather than about war or conquest.

These anonymous "history books" are presumably concerned with past society and culture. These are scarcely relevant to an accurate depiction of contemporary society, or indeed an appraisal of Feminism.

 

[rav3n]

I don't know about ya'll, but I was panicking just watching that commercial. The airport? Under construction? They're going to need more than tires to keep that car safe.

Don't forget the dark. So scawy. *shivers*