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  1. #261
    Blah Orangey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Engineer View Post
    Well, thanks for finding all those sources to prove my point, my friend. All of those definitions say "fear of" or "aversion to" which is, boiled down to it... fear. My point still stands. Not everyone who dislikes or disapproves homosexual behavior is a homophobe.
    Did you miss the part where it said "or discrimination against?" Not to mention that disapproving of "homosexual behavior" counts both as aversion and discrimination.
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  2. #262
    Dependable Skeleton Engineer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orangey View Post
    I don't think that the term "homophobia" is restricted simply to that literal definition of fear of gay people. It has come to be the representative term for a variety of anti-gay positions, and I believe being anti-gay marriage would qualify as a homophobic position.

    I suppose one would only argue that it is NOT homophobic IF they thought that some anti-gay marriage positions were defensible. Hence your example with the color red. If you really think that your example is analogous to the gay marriage issue, then you must think that anti-gay marriage positions are as understandable and acceptable as someone preferring another color.

    You are aware that being friends with and enjoying the company of gays does not mean that someone is not homophobic, right? I've known a couple of people, for instance, that have gay friends and acquaintances but who, when asked about gay political issues, would say something heinous like, "I have no problem with them personally, but I just don't want their type of lifestyle to be shoved down my throat."
    I wouldn't really jump to heinous. I'm more of a "can't we all just get along" type person, so if that's their opinion, well they're damn well entitled to it. Honestly, though, I guess I could see where they're coming from... I know if I was all like "I'm a straight white male, look at how straight, white, and awesome I am," well... Nobody would like me very much. I don't think anyone likes having culture shoved down their throat, and I'd say that in a perfect world, no one should have to experience that, either. I'm certain homosexuals are just as tired of having straight culture shoved down their throats. But just because people disagree with you doesn't mean you get to throw around epithets. The person who calls a homosexual a "fag" is just as bad in my eyes as someone who calls a person who doesn't care for the gay lifestyle a "homophobe". They're both epithets, and they're both pretty terrible.

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  3. #263
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    There is a big difference between disagreement and condemnation, as anyone who has been on the receiving end of prejudice can attest. Perhaps we should just dispense with terms like "racist", "anti-Semite", "bigot", and "chauvinist" as well. Trouble is, they actually mean something, as does homophobe. And yes, what they mean is indeed terrible. "Fag", on the other hand, is just a meaningless insult.
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...

  4. #264
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orangey View Post
    I suppose one would only argue that it is NOT homophobic IF they thought that some anti-gay marriage positions were defensible. Hence your example with the color red. If you really think that your example is analogous to the gay marriage issue, then you must think that anti-gay marriage positions are as understandable and acceptable as someone preferring another color.
    I don't know where you are coming from on this, but the experience I had within the evangelical Christian world WAS that there were quite a number who didn't necessarily WANT to say gays were going to hell but that they HAD to say it because that's what they believed the Bible said. And I've talked to so many who really seemed to not care one way or the other about gays on their own, but had what they felt was a logical argument that said it had to be wrong, so therefore it was. Yes, I met some raging homophobes too, but they were only part of the crowd.

    Basically, the premises of their faith -- how they read the Bible, how they believed that had to interpret the text, led them to conclusion that homosexuality was a lie and false to God and thus had to be opposed, even if they personally didn't care either way.

    I have trouble calling that "homophobia." I might call it ignorance or misunderstanding, since I don't read the text or place the same emphasis on it that they do, but I wouldn't call it homophobia.
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  5. #265
    Blah Orangey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Engineer View Post
    I wouldn't really jump to heinous. I'm more of a "can't we all just get along" type person, so if that's their opinion, well they're damn well entitled to it.
    They're entitled to their opinion insofar as no repressive institution is allowed to stop them thinking a certain way. That doesn't mean that they're opinion must be respected or that it's as worthy of respect as other opinions.

    Quote Originally Posted by Engineer View Post
    Honestly, though, I guess I could see where they're coming from... I know if I was all like "I'm a straight white male, look at how straight, white, and awesome I am," well... Nobody would like me very much.
    If a gay person acts that way (and I doubt that many do), then it's because they're asserting their identity in reaction to oppressive social and political structures that seek (and have sought) to repress them. If you went around and said, "I'm a straight white male, look at how straight, white, and awesome I am," it wouldn't make any sense.

    Quote Originally Posted by Engineer View Post
    I don't think anyone likes having culture shoved down their throat, and I'd say that in a perfect world, no one should have to experience that, either. I'm certain homosexuals are just as tired of having straight culture shoved down their throats.
    There are several problems with this statement.

    1. What does it mean to have culture shoved down one's throat? Visibility? Presence?

    2. If you say that homosexuals probably don't like having "straight culture" shoved down their throats, and yet (by what I imagine you mean by "shoving culture down throats") it is - both by virtue of there being a heterosexual majority AND by structural discrimination against gays - then wouldn't it be hypocritical for straight people to complain about "gay culture" being shoved down their throats? That's like a child who always gets his way complaining about the few times he didn't.

    3. What is meant by "gay culture" and "straight culture?"

    Quote Originally Posted by Engineer View Post
    But just because people disagree with you doesn't mean you get to throw around epithets.
    No, but you can call it what it is.

    Quote Originally Posted by Engineer View Post
    The person who calls a homosexual a "fag" is just as bad in my eyes as someone who calls a person who doesn't care for the gay lifestyle a "homophobe". They're both epithets, and they're both pretty terrible.
    Those are not equivalent.

    Quote Originally Posted by Engineer View Post
    Free and open discussion of ideas without resorting to schoolyard insults. If only that actually worked.
    I think the problem with the whole "I'm against the gay lifestyle" position is that there is really no discussion to be had. It is a fundamentally intolerant position. It's one thing to say that "well, I don't personally prefer my own sex, but others are free to like what they want," and it's quite another to say, "I disapprove!." The former would be equivalent, like Coriolis said, to the example about color preference. The latter, however, is a discriminatory position (and as such qualifies as homophobic.)
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  6. #266
    Dependable Skeleton Engineer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orangey View Post
    snip
    Well that's certainly an interesting way to see it, and I'm glad that you've developed your own opinion of things and are willing to argue for it.
    But all this deconstruction and point-finding really isn't going to change my personal belief either. I don't think either of us can claim to be more right than the other, since this issue is pretty much one of "this is how I see it" and not one of "indisputable fact."
    There are two sides and perspectives to every issue. That's all I was trying to point out with my original post.
    (See below, I'm True Neutral. That's just how I work.)
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  7. #267
    Blah Orangey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    I don't know where you are coming from on this, but the experience I had within the evangelical Christian world WAS that there were quite a number who didn't necessarily WANT to say gays were going to hell but that they HAD to say it because that's what they believed the Bible said. And I've talked to so many who really seemed to not care one way or the other about gays on their own, but had what they felt was a logical argument that said it had to be wrong, so therefore it was. Yes, I met some raging homophobes too, but they were only part of the crowd.

    Basically, the premises of their faith -- how they read the Bible, how they believed that had to interpret the text, led them to conclusion that homosexuality was a lie and false to God and thus had to be opposed, even if they personally didn't care either way.

    I have trouble calling that "homophobia." I might call it ignorance or misunderstanding, since I don't read the text or place the same emphasis on it that they do, but I wouldn't call it homophobia.
    Personally I've never really run across what you've described here, but if I did, I think I'd still call it homophobia. Whether or not they're 100% emotionally invested in the homophobic ideas that they spout is less of a concern to me than the consequences of their words and (perhaps) resultant actions. And there are consequences. For instance, they might inadvertently impose needless self-loathing and self-esteem issues onto their children who might be gay, or they might transmit dangerous and wrong ideas to their children/other children/other people, or they might vote against gay marriage, etc., Essentially, if all of these "I just believe it because it's my duty," or "I just believe it because it's all I know" folks ran the world, the consequences would be still be loathsome despite whatever cognitive dissonance they might have over the issue internally. JMO.
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  8. #268
    Blah Orangey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Engineer View Post
    Well that's certainly an interesting way to see it, and I'm glad that you've developed your own opinion of things and are willing to argue for it.
    But all this deconstruction and point-finding really isn't going to change my personal belief either. I don't think either of us can claim to be more right than the other, since this issue is pretty much one of "this is how I see it" and not one of "indisputable fact."
    There are two sides and perspectives to every issue. That's all I was trying to point out with my original post.
    (See below, I'm True Neutral. That's just how I work.)
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  9. #269
    Dreaming the life onemoretime's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orangey View Post
    Some positions are better than others by virtue not only of facts but also of logic, morality, and rhetoric.
    Or, they're more personally pleasing to you.

  10. #270
    Blah Orangey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by onemoretime View Post
    Or, they're more personally pleasing to you.
    That would probably be covered under "morality" and "rhetoric."
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