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  1. #231
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wind-up Rex View Post
    Secondly, my issue with Feminism that I put forth in my initial post has yet to actually be refuted. Feminism began as a movement catering to the issues of only a subset of American women. This is not interpretation. This is fact. Feminism, when it was supposedly making all these great strides on my behalf, was still Second Wave feminism when it still was confined by racist and classist limitations. By definition, any gains made by feminism on behalf of minorities and the poor at this time were incidental to its the concerns of its canon. This is troubling to me.
    Your facts are essentially correct. I have done more reading on the British suffrage movement, and know that there was dissent within as to whether the focus should be on empowerment for working-class women, or leveraging the resources of wealthy women (and supportive men) to influence the government. The simple fact that certain classes and races had more wealth and influence, however, made it easier for women in their ranks to effect change. Once those women got the vote, or better property rights, or employment rights, or whatever, it should be easier for the rest to follow on. To the extent that they have not, it is not a flaw in the strategy of starting where you can, with the "lower hanging fruit". The flaw is in failing to follow up on the initial successes. Ideally, expanded rights would be obtained for all women at once, but people who play all-or-nothing can all too easily end up with nothing.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wind-up Rex View Post
    Finally, I don't want to be a feminist because I don't feel the need to compartmentalize injustice. I don't need a particular vantage point for my activism, and I don't want to cling the bootstraps of someone elses philosophy to bolster my own moral sense. The causes of human indignity are complex and generally intertwined.
    Quote Originally Posted by Engineer View Post
    Let's not conflate feminism and civil rights. They may be quite similar, but they're definitely different things. Perhaps they built off of each other's progress, and used one another as springboards, but I feel that you cannot combine them into a single, solitary movement.
    Now, Marm, while I'm pro-feminist, I have to ask this question: what exactly is being done about the horrors of female circumcision, and the appalling way women are treated in patriarchal Islamic societies? I keep up to date on the news, and I can easily say that very few strides have been made over there, much to my sorrow. I honestly think that idle yelling about issues that aren't so pressing over in America should be replaced with actually getting up and doing something about the situation in the East. I'm sure there are many foundations and charities that would be all too eager to help if people agreed that it should be stopped, but like the sickening spectator-only intervention in Darfur... jack-fucking-shit is being done. It's something that pops up as a buzzword, generates a few dollars, and then fades away, but it needs to be goddamn stopped, not talked about. What good is awareness if nothing gets done?
    There are groups directly impacting the situation of women in the situations you describe. EngenderHealth is one that I have supported for years, and there are several working on literacy, health care, and economic independence for women in Afghanistan specifically. These situations are so dire, though, that they will not be cured overnight, nor very effectively without significant investment from the affected groups. How much resources can you direct toward these problems? Each one of us is lucky if we can truly impact even one, but many of us do not even make that effort. It is pointless to get worked up about all the problems remaining unsolved. But if each of us picked just one within our scope to affect and worked at it, things would improve immensely.

    Finally, feminism is just a label, as are all the labels we have for the various forms of prejudice: racism, sexism, anti-semitism, etc. And while Engineer is correct that feminism and civil rights are not the same movement (though they share some common roots), women's rights are civil rights. Moreover, they are human rights, same as rights for blacks or Jews or gays or handicapped, or any other identifiable group. Rex may not "feel the need to compartmentalize injustice", but that may be the only way we have made what progress we have. I hope we are coming closer to the ideal of simply seeing each person as the individual they are, without making assumptions or imposing artificial limitations based upon the categories they fall in.
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...

  2. #232
    royal member Rasofy's Avatar
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    Do you all know when this kind of ad will disappear?
    ...once women stop caring about these type of jokes.
    Meanwhile, let me share a joke about women using computers.


    MINUTES LATER....


    -----------------

    A man builds. A parasite asks 'Where is my share?'
    A man creates. A parasite says, 'What will the neighbors think?'
    A man invents. A parasite says, 'Watch out, or you might tread on the toes of God... '


    -----------------

  3. #233
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orangey View Post
    Agreed. The whole waves thing, while convenient and immediately understandable (because the waves are associated with well-known public movements), is a severely simplified way of identifying feminist ideology and its development. It gives the impression to those who are not familiar with the very great variety in feminist thought that it is the sum total of everything feminism has to offer. Thus you get people who ignorantly proclaim that they "disagree" with feminism.
    Well, to a certain extent I do think that when people say they are contra-feminism I often think "what, all of it?" because it does comprise a terrible broad, diverse and disparite variety of views. That's before you get into the question of whether or not womans liberation and feminism where or are synonymous too. I've known people who said they were in favour of one and not another.

    Of the ideologies I've found most interesting within the feminist rankor I think anarcha-feminism is the best, it comprises criticisms, observations and insights about social change, opinion, tradition, representation which goes beyond politics and challenges the whole idea of politicisation per se too, I like the debates about "The tyranny of structurelessness" and "The tyranny of tyranny" which grew out of the feminist movements attempts to create a genuinely representative and inclusive movement, although like a lot of ideologies they engaged in their own version of reinventing the wheel too. I liked the fact that they challenged how representative feminism was of women, in the UK it was one of the few places were heterosexual women were able to object to the lesbian, seperatist, butch tendencies without being totally ostrachised as traitors from the get go.

    Although I'd say that while it was very interesting and informed some of my thinking it didnt lure me into believing I was or could be sympathic towards feminism per se.

  4. #234
    Senior Member Helios's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rasofy View Post
    .
    The real horror there is that the kid is using IE6 in the first place.

  5. #235
    Senior Member Helios's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    I liked the fact that they challenged how representative feminism was of women, in the UK it was one of the few places were heterosexual women were able to object to the lesbian, seperatist, butch tendencies without being totally ostrachised as traitors from the get go.
    Because homophobia is cool.

  6. #236
    Senior Member jimrckhnd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wind-up Rex View Post

    Feminism, when it was supposedly making all these great strides on my behalf, was still Second Wave feminism when it still was confined by racist and classist limitations. By definition, any gains made by feminism on behalf of minorities and the poor at this time were incidental to its the concerns of its canon. This is troubling to me.
    I definitely understand your concerns that much of the feminist movement, particularly in the past, had class and racial limitations - I've been known to observe that NOW was "The National Organization of Upper Middle Class White Women". However, it seems to me that if a person was facing a multiplicity of economic, political and social barriers – say an African American Lesbian – why they would not applaud a movement/organization that did its best to knock down ONE of those barriers. Feminism in the US had a lot to do with dispelling and flat out making illegal certain beliefs and practices which affected ALL women (women can’t be cops or firefighters, airline pilots, do most jobs in the military, etc.). One could equally argue that MLK was a failure because hey… he never really addressed gay rights. Well… that wasn’t his particular mission. It’s an omission I can easily forgive.

    True you can be too narrowly focused but also you can be too broadly focused. Just because feminism has yet to come up with a cure for cancer and end hunger in Africa doesn’t mean that one can’t in good conscience classify oneself as a feminist as identities can be multiple and depend heavily on context.
    Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large groups

  7. #237
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Helios View Post
    Because homophobia is cool.
    Yes. Exactly.

  8. #238
    Senior Member Helios's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    Yes. Exactly.
    That's the second moment in this thread.

  9. #239
    Dependable Skeleton Engineer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Helios View Post
    Because homophobia is cool.
    As much as I am in favor of gay equality, I have to say... please stop bandying this term about. Not all people who do not support gay rights are afraid of gay people, which is what this term means. I have several acquaintances who disagree wholeheartedly with homosexual behavior, but who actually have several friends that they routinely hang out with who are gay. This struck me as a bit weird, but nonetheless, it's where I got my point from. In a similar manner, if I like the color red, and you do not, expressing your disapproval (that being the extent of the disagreement), I would not call you a redophobe. You're not afraid of the color red. You just don't like it as much as I do.
    A homophobe is someone who runs around calling people epithets to try to cover up his own latent fear that he'll become like those he hates. It's disgusting.
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  10. #240
    Senior Member Jaguar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Helios View Post
    That's the second moment in this thread.
    I'm way beyond two.

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