Understanding invisible threads that change how actions are judged.

[Tigerlily]

Yeah read it and over, then analyze and obsess over it like you do everything else.

 

[heart]

Very well, then. The values I am disgusted by are:

1. Courage - How pathetic do you have to be to have courage? It's just stupid to take risks so that people will admire that, or out of some screwed up sense that you owe people something. It is so pathetic and disgusting to need like that, and to do something so absurd, meaningless, and predictable to fulfill it. You should always flee danger unless it corners you, and then do everything you can against it no matter how underhanded. It's foolish to be bound by something as absurd as a sense of courage.

Well, yes people should think twice before mindlessly jumping into needless danger, but sometimes it is necessary to make a stand for beliefs or to save someone else or to face necessary personal pain to make a needed gain in life. You are half correct here as far as I am concerned, but too simplistic.

2. Trust - This basically the same as saying, "let people screw you over." If you trust people, they will screw you over. It's not even a matter of "if," but "when." They would be foolish not to do so if they could get away with it, in fact. You should always have a back-up plan in case they betray you, so that they can't do what ever they want with you. The easiest is to make sure that you never trust anyone unless you have something to use against them if they betray you. That will deter them. There is no trust, it's only an idea used to trick people. It doesn't do anything.

Not everyone thinks about screwing someone else over. It is more likely the people around us will hurt us by being too human and letting us down in that way rather than purposely screwing us over. But again, you are half correct, the socialized psychopaths out there (estimated to be one in thrity persons) will want to screw us over for kicks and it is wise to be on the look out for persons who seem too glib or gamey. But again you are too simipistic in the view, too wanting things to fit into a cookie cutter mold, life is more complicated.

3. Acceptance, and even building upon the disgusting nature of things as they are, accepting it as valid, even embracing it - This is the most horrifying of all. You look on all this, seeing how disgusting and miserable it is, and you dare to align yourself with that awfulness, praise it as positive regardless of it's voidness of everything that is good or right, you just praise the arbitrary chaotic mess, and speak of it's "necessity," completely ignoring everything wrong with it. You demand people to live in it, you even implore them to love it as you do.

I will never be a cheerleader for evil. It disgusts me in people who are either too weak or too driven by their own ego needs to not stand up to true evil. There can be evil that is chaotic...but there can also be evil in rigid rules though. It takes no sides.

Well, go ahead then. But I can't agree to your values. I cannot. I will not.

I am not even sure you know what my values are for the most part.

 

[heart]

Please read this: David DeVaughn helps an INFP introvert who "hates" people!

INFP and INFJ are radically different mindsets and have very different needs though...

They may both be NF, with some NF type "goals" but their inner worlds and needs are different. Fi and Fe are different.

 

[JustDave]

INFP and INFJ are radically different mindsets and have very different needs though...

Well that being the case please, disregard post # 100. uch:

 

[heart]

Well that being the case please, disregard post # 100. uch:

Sorry, didn't mean to bring on an ouch, but INFJ don't always understand INFP outlooks.

 

[Seanan]

Very well, then. The values I am disgusted by are:

1. Courage - How pathetic do you have to be to have courage? It's just stupid to take risks so that people will admire that, or out of some screwed up sense that you owe people something. It is so pathetic and disgusting to need like that, and to do something so absurd, meaningless, and predictable to fulfill it. You should always flee danger unless it corners you, and then do everything you can against it no matter how underhanded. It's foolish to be bound by something as absurd as a sense of courage.

The philosophy of a Neitzchian coward. Good thing not everyone thinks that way or you'ld be dead. Survival of the fittest is merciless... but you'll never know that as long as there are those willing to die while you philosophize from your easy chair. They do that everyday.. even for you... knowing what you think of them. Because they have real guts. You can try to belittle their bravery and commitment to freedom all you want... they're above caring what you think. No... they're no one's fools.

I have tired to make this impersonal and hope I succeeded. No personal attack intended... just the way of thinking.

 

[Tigerlily]

The philosophy of a Neitzchian coward. Good thing not everyone thinks that way or you'ld be dead. Survival of the fittest is merciless... but you'll never know that as long as there are those willing to die while you philosophize from your easy chair. They do that everyday.. even for you... knowing what you think of them. Because they have real guts. You can try to belittle their bravery and commitment to freedom all you want... they're above caring what you think. No... they're no one's fools.

I have tired to make this impersonal and hope I succeeded. No personal attack intended... just the way of thinking.

 

[heart]

I agree with Seanan, where would we be without the true rebels, the true renegades?

However so often the issue gets muddied with the lower octave type renegade who rebels just for the sake of reacting. It is a complex issue worth being critical minded for.

Cue up Gnarls Barkly "Crazy"

 

[Athenian200]

The philosophy of a Neitzchian coward. Good thing not everyone thinks that way or you'ld be dead. Survival of the fittest is merciless... but you'll never know that as long as there are those willing to die while you philosophize from your easy chair. They do that everyday.. even for you... knowing what you think of them. Because they have real guts. You can try to belittle their bravery and commitment to freedom all you want... they're above caring what you think. No... they're no one's fools.

I have tired to make this impersonal and hope I succeeded. No personal attack intended... just the way of thinking.

:rolli:

They are not the only ones who are beyond caring what others think, Seanan. They just took a different path, and put themselves through something difficult unnecessarily. If they deserve any sentiment, it's pity for not seeing their own futility.

 

[EffEmDoubleyou]

Very well, then. The values I am disgusted by are:

1. Courage
2. Trust
3. Acceptance

What I can't believe is that people are so pathetic, that they admire people who behave according to such.

Well, go ahead then. But I can't agree to your values. I cannot. I will not.

After reading this post, I'm actually glad. Now I can ignore this thread safe in the thought that there's absolutely nothing that can be accomplished here.

 

[heart]

They are not the only ones who are beyond caring what others think, Seanan. They just took a different path, and put themselves through something difficult unnecessarily. If they deserve any sentiment, it's pity for not seeing their own futility.

How do you think increases in human right occur? Do you think the higher level controllers just give them to us because they are so good?

We only have what we have because someone else stood up once and faced the powerful to fight for it.

For example: Like having the weekend and a eight hour workday? Thank a union member who stood and faced a Pinkerton with a machine gun. many people in this country used to work a mandatory 16 hours a day, six days a week for crap wages, no benefits, no safety regs, no sick time and their lives were bleak.

 

[disregard]

After reading this post, I'm actually glad. Now I can ignore this thread safe in the thought that there's absolutely nothing that can be accomplished here.

Yep.. lost cause.

Ironically, however, we are the ones that apparently need to be fixed.

 

[Seanan]

:rolli:

They are not the only ones who are beyond caring what others think, Seanan. They just took a different path, and put themselves through something difficult unnecessarily. If they deserve any sentiment, it's pity for not seeing their own futility.

Why not give me something that wasn't lifted from "Will to Power?" Original thought is tuff.

 

[Wandering]

I'm not willing to open myself up to people and let them screw me over because the experience might be beneficial later on.

Then you will never discover the whole nature of life.

I'm not someone who's willing to open themselves up to abuse and get myself into situations where various other people can force me to be around them or do something for them against my will because of some threat (legal, health, career, etc) that they hold over my head. I want some semblance of a guarantee against that which isn't dependent on people liking me, or I'll never trust anyone.

Nonsensical. It's like someone holding their breath and arguing that they won't breathe the air until they have a garantee that it cannot possibly be polluted. All they're gonna get is that they will die of self-imposed asphyxiation. That's what you're doing to yourself.

I can't live in such a constant state of ambiguity. I just can't think that way all the time. I can refocus periodically, but I can't constantly think that way. That's just too much, I need structure. Sorry, I'm just not able to deal with this.

Stop depending so much on Ti/Te and start using your Ni to LEAD the way. Ni has no problem with ambiguity, because it understands that it is only an illusion, that there is order under the apparent mess. DomNi TRUSTS that it will find the order in the ambiguity.

Life without definite rules is a terrifying thing. You have to, single-handedly, ceaselessly outwit and outmaneuver everyone around you 24/7, while they cooperatively in rapidly changing alliances and rivalries, that you have to predict and play off of one another, use every trick they can think of against you in order to take everything they can from you to improve their own life unless you succeed each time. And the deck is always stacked against you because many of them are more experienced, have more intrinsic intelligence, more creativity, and have particular natural talents they can use. How does everyone else tolerate this in stride, why does it not seem awful to anyone else? It's like living in a nightmarishly difficult strategy game.

Yup. And you will never successfully play it as long as you try and play with someone else's hand. If you're an INFJ, then your hand is Ni/Fe. Fight against it as much as you want, but that won't change. As long as you'll try to face life using Ti/Te, you will FAIL in finding peace and contentedness. But give Ni and Fe a chance to show you their true worth, and you will finally learn to navigate more or less confidently the waters of life. Your choice.

Everything is disgusting because it has no order. Only order is beautiful or meaningful, everything else is filth and ugliness to me. So the only way I can get any pleasure out of life is to continually impose my idea of order on everything I have control over, and try to appreciate those things while they last (which they won't), because they will be the only things worth appreciating.

Sorry, I can't think of a better description... I remember drawing and thinking about things like this even when I was very young, almost as if the idea were innate for me.

Yeah, you were high on Ti when you were a CHILD. It's time to grow up, Athenian. It's time to learn to use your ADULT functions. You WILL, eventually, because your DomNi will not be muzzled, it WILL one day figure out that you've been doing it wrong. But you can CHOOSE to speed things up by actually giving thoughts to the possibility that the paranoid way you favour might not be a good way for you to live.

Good luck. And yes, it sucks to be an INFJ at times like this.

 

[Seanan]

How do you think increases in human right occur? Do you think the higher level controllers just give them to us because they are so good?

We only have what we have because someone else stood up once and faced the powerful to fight for it.

For example: Like having the weekend and a eight hour workday? Thank a union member who stood and faced a Pinkerton with a machine gun. many people in this country used to work a mandatory 16 hours a day, six days a week for crap wages, no benefits, no safety regs, no sick time and their lives were bleak.

Yup, and this country (USA) I hold so dear for having given me so much wouldn't be here for me as it is today were it not for a quest for freedom. Kudos and gratitude to those who died for it... rebells all.

 

[heart]

Then you will never discover the whole nature of life.

This is true. I remember in my mid teens, when I had my heart throughly broken and crushed and the thought came to me "Wow, I am really into real life now, I matter enough in this world that feel this kind of personally directed/inflicted pain. I am no longer just watching life go by, I am a player in it. I am no longer aching to connect, I have connected and experienced connection. I will again."

That's life. Sometimes learning comes through pain and sometimes through joy but always a gain in someway.

 

[Tallulah]

Athenian, I think what you're really dealing with here is a worldview that has evolved entirely from defense mechanisms, but since the defenses of order and rules seem logical to you, you think that's how everyone should operate. You are too mired in them to see that they really ARE just that, though. Defenses. I have been caught up in defense mechanisms like that, allowing myself to keep the world at bay by living in my own head and passing judgment on the choices that others make.

The problem with this way of thinking is that it is not an accurate picture of how the world works. Sure, you can find others that think the way you do, but they are equally miserable--not equally idealistic and virtuous. I think you have this idealistic view of how the world should work with an ironclad set of rules that everyone follows. The problem with that is that everyone then has to behave perfectly. Communism, for example, is a great idea in theory, but the world has to be filled with perfect people in order to make it work. In practice, people become the victims of the power-hungry in charge, and dissatisfied to only have what they are allotted. You have to allow that practice is not the same as theory. There are good and bad people in the world, and no one in this world is given the certainty from the outset of knowing which is which. You have to trust yourself and your instincts. And you have to get rid of the preconceived notion that people are inherently rotten.

I think you really would benefit from therapy, and I don't mean that to be condescending. I think most of us would. I know I do. You can go on with these views of yours, holding tightly and believing that the rest of the world is wrong, but trust me, one of these days, the walls will come tumbling down, and you'll realize that you will HAVE to change to survive. You don't realize it now, but these views you have are too rigid to be healthy, and they are more negative than the situation warrants. You think we're all "caving" to the downward spiral of the structure of society. We're not. The structure you crave does not exist in the way you think it does. You are holding yourself and others to impossible standards, and while you do so, you are punishing yourself unnecessarily. A therapist can help you see where you're hurting yourself, but only if you allow them to. That takes TRUST.

You say you are usually happy. I think maybe you are usually not obviously UN-happy, but you don't realize how much happier you could be if you realized you don't have to hold yourself to these self-imposed standards.

I think if you found yourself in a situation where you needed mercy rather than justice, you might start to realize where we're all coming from. Sure, we try to do right, and stay out of trouble. What if you found yourself unjustly accused? What if you found yourself needing to defend your own life? Wouldn't you want more than the cold, brutal hand of justice in your corner? Wouldn't you want someone to take into account the circumstances of the situation and your character?

One more point: People are different. They internalize things and apply them differently. Where you go crazy thinking that there are rules that people are just applying seemingly randomly and in different ways than they were intended, I personally could not live in a world that was made up of rules that I had to follow rigidly without any room for personal interpretation. I struggled for a long time with my faith on just such an issue, and found relief in realizing that there wasn't just ONE way to interpret a "rule," and that I didn't have to have other's viewpoints imposed on me. Where definity and order gives you joy, it brings others great emotional pain.

 

[nozflubber]

"Just because we fought one invisible criminal doesn't mean everybody's invisible.

I understand that, but it does mean that some of them could be invisible, and I think they're all invisible in this room."

 

[Nadir]

A lot of theorizing about life, you've done, athenian --
but have you actually tried living?

I get the sense that you're not really speaking from experience, but more like predicted experience you think you'll be living through, should you step out of your imposed boundaries out into the real world. Which seems sort of a weak foundation, given that you're building up unnecessary predispositions about life. You might have a fondness for order, but I think you're more enamored with the idea of crafting it from your workshop and your workshop only as opposed to order itself. And because life consists of much more than your workshop, you're inherently hostile towards life, simply because you don't know much about it and assume that to be a negative based on what you observe from the window of your workshop, which shows you what you want to see, really. Why do that at all? That's a fairly limited perspective to mull things over from.

Go out and experience the dynamism of life for yourself. Your exquisite statue, however much you like it, represents only one small aspect of it. If you manage to do that, you might even be able integrate what you've perceived, to give your order-craft some measure of animation, dynamism. Or come up with new ones.

I now understand why you were so afraid of turning 20. Are you afraid of leaving your workshop behind you? Well, I am sorry to say this, but eventually, you'll have to do exactly that. And truly, it hasn't much to do with courage, trust, or acceptance, but they are certainly helpful in adapting. And no matter how much you're disgusted by it for whatever reason, that does not mean anything, either -- an exclamation of disgust is a judgment. Judgment has no meaning without action or some other form of outward expression, however, and you certainly are not one to act.

 

[Randomnity]

Athenian, what terrible things have happened to you, such that this is your world view?

Are you happy? Do you think this way of thinking will contribute to your future success?

I like you and I think you have good intentions, which is why I'm deeply saddened by the attitude towards life that you've expressed here.