Understanding invisible threads that change how actions are judged.

[Athenian200]

I don't think you have anything to worry about. Subjectivity might play some role in the administration of justice, but it's role is attenuated thanks to a legal system that emphasizes objectivity. But even if there is subjectivity in our system, I don't think it'll affect you (harm you) on the level and to the degree you're worried about.

Really? That makes me feel a lot better, thanks. That was all I was worried about.

I still stand by my original advice to you, to simply try to be as genuine as you can when you talk to people and to listen as best you can. Nothing too special or mystical, just attention. I think it would really benefit you as well as take care of your concerns.

That would be easier if I knew what genuine was. Is it like what I'm saying here, kind of? I could probably do something like that.

I would propose that the common theme in both these activities is getting your mind off your worrying, that is, off your thinking and off your habit of assessing and evaluating the data streams that constitute your mind. In the first method, you alleviate your worrying by pretending like you've got nothing to worry about. In the second, you focus your mind on something else, sharply. Acceptance is a lot like the first method. Instead of thinking "I have this, so I don't have to worry," you think "I don't care if I have this, so I don't have to worry." So to that extent, I'd say you're already practicing something a lot like acceptance.

Yeah. I think the difference is that I don't really discuss the part of me that accepts/experiences things, because that's something I do without really noticing. I'm hardly even conscious of doing it, but I know that sometimes I probably do. The thing is, I can only tell you about the things I've judged already, because I don't actually understand the things I haven't judged on a conscious level that I can articulate.

Have you ever tried meditating? This is exactly what happens to n00b meditators. It still happens to me when I try and sit without letting my mind wander and judge everything, including the quality of my meditation. Practice.

I'll consider it, thanks for the suggestion.

Are you really tolerating, or are you just withdrawing ("ignoring") and avoiding ("changing the subject")? I think there's a difference. When I think of tolerating something, like my anxiety, I think of confronting it, allowing it to be there, and connecting to it. Ultimately, it's a process of befriending. Withdrawing and escaping is more the opposite and the thing that tends to get me in more trouble. It sounds like you're somewhere in the middle. That's cool.

It's a little of both. I do acknowledge the situation, but I also acknowledge my irritation/disgust with it, and then choose to focus on something else since I know there's nothing I can do about it. Depending on how much it bothers me, I might well complain to someone about how much I dislike it once in a while as a release, though.

Not much Fe I see coming in and out of our Athenian, from what she herself says

Well, then what do I seem to be using? I don't think I could be using just Ti, that's probably too weak to work on it's own.

I think I do use Fe to do things that people expect of me, try to be polite to them and have occasional conversations (although I don't exactly work to be liked), and also to minimize my obligations to them.

It's just that here, I'm discussing all the ideas I'm processing about what could happen and how I would react, not really mentioning what I do. It's more that I want to know that if for some reason people didn't like me (although right now a few of them do and most of them are indifferent), I would have something to fall back on. This is because I became aware of the possibility that there wasn't anything else.

 

[ThatsWhatHeSaid]

Really? That makes me feel a lot better, thanks. That was all I was worried about.

Cool. I'm glad.

That would be easier if I knew what genuine was. Is it like what I'm saying here, kind of? I could probably do something like that.

I think that's perfect. Thich Nhat Hanh has this little mantra that you say to yourself before having a conversation: "I'm really here for you." I've found that just saying that helps focus me well enough. It's really simple, short, and effective.

Yeah. I think the difference is that I don't really discuss the part of me that accepts/experiences things, because that's something I do without really noticing. I'm hardly even conscious of doing it, but I know that sometimes I probably do. The thing is, I can only tell you about the things I've judged already, because I don't actually understand the things I haven't judged on a conscious level that I can articulate.

"The Tao that can be told is not the eternal Tao;
The name that can be named is not the eternal name." (Opening line of the Tao)

Maybe you're onto something there.

It's a little of both. I do acknowledge the situation, but I also acknowledge my irritation/disgust with it, and then choose to focus on something else since I know there's nothing I can do about it. Depending on how much it bothers me, I might well complain to someone about how much I dislike it once in a while as a release, though.

That's cool. Your honesty is admirable. I mean that sincerely.

 

[RDF]

Not much Fe I see coming in and out of our Athenian, from what she herself says

Well, then what do I seem to be using? I don't think I could be using just Ti, that's probably too weak to work on it's own.

If you want an analysis of your functions, here it is. Hope you don't mind if it's a little harsh. I'm not trying to put you down; rather, I'm trying to highlight how the functions work, which means putting things under a microscope and treating them a bit simplistically for illustration purposes.

****************

In INFJs, Dominant Ni is used to recognize and manipulate patterns. In this context, INFJs take in facts about the world then try to piece them together like a jigsaw puzzle and create an interconnected network of thoughts. In INFJs, the network of thoughts commonly contains rules, values, and experiences for how the world works.

In the meantime, Auxiliary Fe is the bridge between the inner network of thoughts and the outer world. It can work two ways: 1) Stunted use of Fe, or 2) Mature use of Fe.

1) Stunted use of Fe:

INFJs exert a great deal of effort to construct and maintain their inner network (Ni). Everything in the Ni network is interconnected like a spider web, and discordant ideas from the outer world jar the network and make all the elements jangle uncomfortably. IOW, ideas from the outer world can be painful. Since the INFJ has invested so much effort in the inner network, they often use their Auxiliary Fe as a guard against invasive thoughts that might jar and jangle the inner network. Fe is a judging function. So when an idea from the outer world doesn't fit easily into the network, Fe judges such ideas as "disgusting" or "wrong" or "evil." Only ideas that fit easily into the inner network (i.e., ideas that fit preconceptions) are allowed in and judged positively.

In this stunted use of Fe, the INFJ is heavily invested in his/her preconceptions of how the world should work, and Auxiliary Fe quickly judges anything that doesn't match those preconceptions as "wrong" and dismisses them instantly.

2) Mature use of Fe:

Mature INFJs recognize that the world is a complex place and that there is always more to learn. So they direct their Fe outward and use it to learn as much as possible about the world. If an idea strikes them as "wrong" or "disgusting," especially when that idea is espoused by someone they otherwise respect, they take that as a signal that their inner network may need to be adjusted. They realize that their preconceptions of the world may be inaccurate; there is always more to be learned, and preconceptions need to be challenged. So they use their Fe to study controversial subject and force-feed their inner network with new ideas, even when the process is painful.

In this mature use of Fe, the INFJ uses Fe as a "check" on their inner network. They realize that their inner network isn't much good if it's out of line with the real world, and so the ideas collected by their Fe become a way to constantly test and upgrade their inner network and keep it current with the real world.

Summary:

Stunted use of Fe: The INFJ puts total faith in their inner network and uses Fe to judge and reject anything from the outer world that doesn't easily and instantly mesh with the inner network.

Mature use of Fe: The INFJ knows that their inner network is incomplete and faulty at any given time (after all, who can say they know everything about the world?), so they use Fe to constantly test and upgrade the inner network by force-feeding their inner network with new values and new ideas.

************************

Athenian:

You sound like you are using Fe in a stunted manner. You have carefully built up an inner network of thoughts and values about how the outer world should work. But your inner picture of the world is simplistic and apocalyptic in nature. According to you, when people aren't liked, they get lynched. And I remember your picture of what would happen to the world during the next recession; you surmised that the world would effectively regress to the stone age. Like I said: simplistic and apocalyptic.

Athenian, by your own admission you have little or no understanding of how the world really works. Occasionally you manage to integrate some new system, like the message board rules, but then any little divergence from those rules sends you into a tizzy. You get invested in your inner network (your inner picture of how the world around you should work), but time and time again your inner picture is proven wrong by new information; and you're so invested in your inner picture that instead of integrating the new information, you reject the information and get upset.

You want the world to work according to a predictable set of rules? Fine. It does work according to rules. But the rules are much more complex than the simplistic picture in your head. The rules are based on psychology, relativity, and consensus.

You need to quit using your Fe to protect your inner notions. The world is what it is. If you ever want to understand the world, you need to turn your Fe outward and start paying attention to how the world actually works (instead of imagining that you know how it should work and then getting upset and bent out of shape when you're proved wrong for the umpteenth time). You need to use your Fe to study the real world outside your head; you need to force-feed your Ni no matter how uncomfortable that process feels, and update your inner vision of the world until it matches the outside world.

FWIW, Fe is a great tool for understanding the world. But overcoming the preconceptions of your Ni is an uncomfortable process, so it's more tempting to use Fe in a stunted capacity to keep the world at bay. Which is what you're doing. You're judging things negatively so that you won't have to consider them and possibly have to integrate them into your inner network.

***********************

By the way, this is a lifelong fight for INFJs. I know a highly-accomplished INFJ who is a high-level boss in a federal agency. He is brilliant and highly successful at what he does. He deals with the real world constantly, and he has no problem integrating new information about the world into his inner network or inner vision of how the world works.

Nonetheless, I've seen him get hung up and intolerant in debates about core values like the death penalty. He just can't get it into his head that reasonable people can disagree about something like the death penalty. So when someone he respects disagrees with him about that topic, he gets overbearing and pushy, and then finally quite angry. It's surprising to see someone as open-minded and intelligent as him become childish and petulant about a common controversial topic.

Again, the key is Fe. My INFJ acquaintance normally keeps his Fe directed outward. But when it comes to a few core values, he goes back to using stunted Fe and rejects any view that doesn't match his own opinion. He has devoted a lot of thought to his core values, and he falls into the bad habit of using Fe to protect his inner thoughts on those core values.

Instead, even when it comes to his core values he should be directing his Fe outward and try to understand how and why reasonable people can disagree on common controversial subjects like the death penalty. Other people have devoted a lot of thought to the subject too, and he could learn from them and perhaps modify his own opinions so that they're more representative of the real world rather than trying to insist that only one view (his) can be legitimate.

The world is what it is. INFJs have two choices: They can use stunted Fe and reject the real world and live in a fantasy world of their own making (and become further and further detached from reality), or they can use mature Fe and learn about the real world so they can deal with it competently.

In short: Fe is a judging function. In stunted use of Fe, you're using Fe to judge the world and decide what you'll allow into your inner world (i.e. only those things that fit your preconceptions). But in mature use of Fe, you should use Fe to evaluate and judge your inner world and see if it is adequately reflecting the outer world. If it isn't, then you should use Fe in non-judging capacity (or use some other non-judging function) to force-feed your inner world and update it properly so that it can deal with the outer world in an adult fashion.

*****************

By the way, the same rules apply to all Introverts. All Introverts tend to trust the signals from their Dominant function and tend to find input from their Auxiliary to be painful or disconcerting. So they get in the habit of using their Auxiliary in stunted fashion, i.e. as a way of screening out the world to protect their Dominant from disconcerting or discordant ideas. But if they want to use their functions in a mature manner, they should be using their Auxiliary to investigate the world and to serve as a "check" on their Dominant, i.e. as a way to keep their Dominant under control and in touch with reality.

(Extroverts tend to have the opposite problem. Their Dominant function is often excessively ruled by the world and/or values espoused by the world. For purposes of balance, they need to develop their internal Auxiliary as an anchor and a means of self-definition, i.e. they need to use their Auxiliary to define personal values to guide them and keep them on a steady course when external circumstances go through changes, or are unreliable, or become constricted and stifling.)

 

[Wandering]

In this stunted use of Fe, the INFJ is heavily invested in his/her preconceptions of how the world should work, and Auxiliary Fe quickly judges anything that doesn't match those preconceptions as "wrong" and dismisses them instantly.

I personally see this as Shadow Fi getting out of hand. Not saying I'm right and you're wrong, FineLine, just sharing my current personal understanding. Fi is about personal values, and this stunted Fe you describe seems to be working pretty much the way an immature Fi would act.

2) Mature use of Fe: Mature INFJs recognize that the world is a complex place and that there is always more to learn. So they direct their Fe outward and use it to learn as much as possible about the world. If an idea strikes them as "wrong" or "disgusting," especially when that idea is espoused by someone they otherwise respect, they take that as a signal that their inner network may need to be adjusted. They realize that their preconceptions of the world may be inaccurate; there is always more to be learned, and preconceptions need to be challenged. So they use their Fe to study controversial subject and force-feed their inner network with new ideas, even when the process is painful.

In this mature use of Fe, the INFJ uses Fe as a "check" on their inner network. They realize that their inner network isn't much good if it's out of line with the real world, and so the ideas collected by their Fe become a way to constantly test and upgrade their inner network and keep it current with the real world.

Exactly. I don't know about my fellow INFJs, but I personally feel like saying "Bravo!" That's exactly it.

By the way, this is a lifelong fight for INFJs.

Tell me about it...

By the way, the same rules apply to all Introverts. All Introverts tend to trust the signals from their Dominant function and tend to find input from their Auxiliary to be painful or disconcerting. So they get in the habit of using their Auxiliary in stunted fashion, i.e. as a way of screening out the world to protect their Dominant from disconcerting or discordant ideas. But if they want to use their functions in a mature manner, they should be using their Auxiliary to investigate the world and to function as a "check" on their Dominant, i.e. as a way to keep their Dominant under control and in touch with reality.

Yup. Using Fe (in the particular case at hand) can be very destabilising, because it demands that we validate, for *other people's* sake, what doesn't make sense to us. It's the feeling of being forced to accept others and their values even when they don't make any sense, that you have so forcefully described, Athenian. But the thing is: this is NECESSARY. It's even the POINT of it all: our Auxiliary MUST conflict with our Dominant, or otherwise we wouldn't be able to notice all the stuff that we don't know and/or understand yet, and we would get stuck with a FALSE understanding of the world, a FALSE image of what it is really like. In order to come to see the way the world and other people TRULY are, we need to feed CONFLICTING data to our Dominant. There's no escaping it.

It is very tempting to instead turn to our other Introverted functions such as Tertiary Ti and Shadow Fi, but this is not going to work since by definition it means that we are not interacting with the world itself, but only with, well, ourselves. I see it as a kind of functional mutual masturbation, where the Introverted functions reinforce each other's preconceptions and refuse to take in conflicting information from the real world through the Extraverted functions, and only use those Extraverted functions as slaves to carry out the Introverted functions' orders. Very tempting, but very stunting.

 

[heart]

Nonetheless, I've seen him get hung up and intolerant in debates about core values like the death penalty. He just can't get it into his head that reasonable people can disagree about something like the death penalty. So when someone he respects disagrees with him about that topic, he gets overbearing and pushy, and then finally quite angry. It's surprising to see someone as open-minded and intelligent as him become childish and petulant about a common controversial topic.

Again, the key is Fe. My INFJ acquaintance normally keeps his Fe directed outward. But when it comes to a few core values, he goes back to using stunted Fe and rejects any view that doesn't match his own opinion. He has devoted a lot of thought to his core values, and he falls into the bad habit of using Fe to protect his inner thoughts on those core values.

Instead, even when it comes to his core values he should be directing his Fe outward and try to understand how and why reasonable people can disagree on common controversial subjects like the death penalty. Other people have devoted a lot of thought to the subject too, and he could learn from them and perhaps modify his own opinions so that they're more representative of the real world rather than trying to insist that only one view (his) can be legitimate.

Using Fe to gain better extroversion and perception, perspective on the outer world would do an INFJ a lot of good but I am not sure I would want to see an INFJ who would sell out on their core inner values and their fiery stand against the world on their deepest issues just to pander to popular opinion though... When an INFJ has good judgement and takes a strong stand, there's no one more admirable, jmo.

Without that, where would our true renegades come from?

 

[RDF]

By the way, the material that I posted above largely reflects the system at PersonalityPage.com. See the following info about INFJs: http://www.personalitypage.com/INFJ_per.html

 

[Mempy]

Fineline's long post

I really like many of your contributions, and I really respect your logical conclusions and how you lay out your knowledge in a respectful, adequate, and organized way. I'm impressed, extremely, and continually grateful for how clearly you depict your insights about MBTI. In this case, I was aware of this process of using secondary functions to preclude incoming information that upsets one's inner system of principles and/or values, but how it applies to Athenian is something I didn't consider. Thanks for the insight, and I COMPLETELY agree that this bad habit is one ALL introverted types are capable of falling into (and I think extroverts can fall into bad habits that have similarly bad repurcussions, but I haven't researched or formulated theories about how that happens).

I'm impressed! Good job!

(Now, bed. Does anyone realize I have to be up in three hours? Do I realize I have to be up in three hours?)

 

[RDF]

I am not sure I would want to see an INFJ who would sell out on their core inner values, their fiery stand against the world on their deepest issues though...

without that, where would our true renegades come from?

It's a fine point: Can one understand others and still have opinions of one's own?

But the point I was raising was that the fellow was merely being dogmatic. He was capable of a more nuanced understanding of the issue, but he didn't want to stretch to see things from anyone else's point of view. Some may see that as a virtue; but it's not a pretty sight when an intelligent fellow falls into petulance and bullying to get his point across in a social discussion of a common social issue.

 

[Wandering]

Using Fe to gain better extroversion and perception, perspective on the outer world would do an INFJ a lot of good but I am not sure I would want to see an INFJ who would sell out on their core inner values and their fiery stand against the world on their deepest issues just to pander to popular opinion though...

Without that, where would our true renegades come from?

It all depends on what those "core values" are based on.

If they are based on stunted Fe/Shadow Fi, as in "I want things to be that way, and I reject what other people think", then the INFJ is only going to become a fanatic.

It's only when an INFJ thoroughly reflects on their values, why they hold them, what it means for them and for other people, and is able at the same time to recognise that other people might think differently and maybe even not be "wrong" for it, that the "true renegade" can come shining through.

If you prefer: a renegade knows what he's fighting and why. Someone who just rejects a world they don't understand and don't care about understanding is not a true renegade.

 

[RDF]

I'm impressed! Good job!

Thanks, Mempy. Much appreciated!

(Now, bed. Does anyone realize I have to be up in three hours? Do I realize I have to be up in three hours?)

At least it's Friday!

 

[Wandering]

It's a fine point: Can one understand others and still have opinions of one's own?

Isn't that the very definition of a mature INFJ ?

 

[Athenian200]

I don't agree with you, FineLine. I can accept ideas without forcing stuff in continually. I'm not interested in doing things your way. I'm not going to do the masochistic stuff you're suggesting. I have a right to live how I wish, and I don't have to listen to you. Dismiss me as immature all you want.

Quite honestly, it's people like you who make me feel defensive. I was understanding and accepting what a few other people were saying when they explained it. I felt like I was getting it, until you showed up and started trying to force tainted water down my throat all over again.

 

[heart]

It's a fine point: Can one understand others and still have opinions of one's own?

But the point I was raising was that the fellow was merely being dogmatic. He was capable of a more nuanced understanding of the issue, but he didn't want to stretch to see things from anyone else's point of view. Some may see that as a virtue; but it's not a pretty sight when an intelligent fellow falls into petulance and bullying to get his point across in a social discussion of a common social issue.

Maybe I am misunderstanding you here, it sounded before as if you expected him to listen to other's views and change his view on the death penalty in accordance because others had devoted much thought to the subject. If I misread you on that, I am sorry.

I have to admit, I have always found the stregnth and conviction of INFJ core opinions admirable. Good grief, for anyone to take a stand about anything these days is admirable.

 

[RDF]

I personally see this as Shadow Fi getting out of hand. Not saying I'm right and you're wrong, FineLine, just sharing my current personal understanding. Fi is about personal values, and this stunted Fe you describe seems to be working pretty much the way an immature Fi would act.

When Fe and Fi judge and reject, they do it pretty much the same way. A judgment is a judgment.

It's more a question of context and "feel": Is the rejection coming from an Auxiliary function or Dominant function, etc. I tend to think of an INFJ's Fe rejection as more dismissive (refusal to even consider the subject), whereas an INFP's Fi rejection is more ferocious because it affects values tied to self-definition.

I expect you've noticed from your time at INFP-GC that a negative judgment on an issue from an INFP has a different "feel" as opposed to a negative judgment on an issue from an INFJ.

 

[Wandering]

I don't agree with you, FineLine. I can accept ideas without forcing stuff in continually. I'm not interested in doing things your way. I'm not going to do the masochistic stuff you're suggesting. I have a right to live how I wish, and I don't have to listen to you. Dismiss me as immature all you want.

Quite honestly, it's people like you who make me feel defensive. I was understanding and accepting what a few other people were saying when they explained it. I felt like I was getting it, until you showed up and started trying to force tainted water down my throat all over again.

And yet right here you're doing exactly what FineLine and I have been trying to tell you that you're doing. Instead of trying to understand what we're telling you, you're judging it right away, dismissing it, and even telling us that we're somehow morally wrong for thinking and acting the way we are.

*sigh*

You're an INFJ all right. I should know better than trying to MAKE an INFJ see what they are not seeing I'll never learn...

 

[RDF]

I don't agree with you, FineLine. I can accept ideas without forcing stuff in continually. I'm not interested in doing things your way. I'm not going to do the masochistic stuff you're suggesting. I have a right to live how I wish, and I don't have to listen to you. Dismiss me as immature all you want.

Quite honestly, it's people like you who make me feel defensive. I was understanding and accepting what a few other people were saying when they explained it. I felt like I was getting it, until you showed up and started trying to force tainted water down my throat all over again.

Like I said at the start of my previous message, I was oversimplifying in order to illustrate. Try reading the material at PersonalityPage.com. They're much more diplomatic in their expression: http://www.personalitypage.com/INFJ_per.html

Otherwise, I was just answering your question. You're free to live anyway you want. It's no skin off my nose. I was just giving you the current thinking from the point of view of how the functions work. *shrugs*

 

[RDF]

Maybe I am misunderstanding you here, it sounded before as if you expected him to listen to other's views and change his view on the death penalty in accordance because others had devoted much thought to the subject. If I misread you on that, I am sorry.

I have to admit, I have always found the stregnth and conviction of INFJ core opinions admirable. Good grief, for anyone to take a stand about anything these days is admirable.

It's my illustration, and my point was about taking a dogmatic position versus demonstrating a nuanced understanding of a common social issue.

None of that has anything to do with taking a stand. One can see both sides of the issue and still take a principled stand.

 

[Mempy]

At least it's Friday!

Exactly! Sweet blessed relief!

Sorry you're not receiving /quite/ as much support as I think you deserve, but I really think it was an awesome post, and your subsequent posts do well to further explain your excellently thought out and excellently illustrated point.

It must take work to write such a long post, but you do it so frequently that perhaps you're practiced. Perhaps you try hard to be concise, but I think you did a good job for the points you were making.

(Two hours and counting down. )

 

[Wandering]

When Fe and Fi judge and reject, they do it pretty much the same way. A judgment is a judgment.

I'm not sure I completely agree on that, but it's kinda hard to explain.

It's more a question of context and "feel": Is the rejection coming from an Auxiliary function or Dominant function, etc. I tend to think of an INFJ's Fe rejection as more dismissive (refusal to even consider the subject), whereas an INFP's Fi rejection is more ferocious because it affects values tied to self-definition.

Speaking of Athenian right now: don't you think it's much more a case of the latter than the former? Just look at the "rejection post" above: it's got "ferocious" and "I reject this because it affects values tied to my self-definition" written all over it, don't you think?

I expect you've noticed from your time at INFP-GC that a negative judgment on an issue from an INFP has a different "feel" as opposed to a negative judgment on an issue from an INFJ.

Yup. And in Athenian's case, it sounds far more INFPish than INFJish to my ears. Saying stuff like "I hate you and your values", that's typically angry INFP, from what I've experienced.

 

[Athenian200]

And yet right here you're doing exactly what FineLine and I have been trying to tell you that you're doing. Instead of trying to understand what we're telling you, you're judging it right away, dismissing it, and even telling us that we're somehow morally wrong for thinking and acting the way we are.

*sigh*

You're an INFJ all right. I should know better than trying to MAKE an INFJ see what they are not seeing I'll never learn...

I didn't mean to give that impression. I thought he was telling me I had to accept ideas without examining them, and even when they are inconsistent, arbitrary, and contradictory in order to be mature, and I don't agree.

I also felt like he was saying that I had no right to disagree or do things differently because that was the right way, and was forcing the idea on me against my will.

My attitude is that I can listen to an idea if it's offered to me (rather than forced on me), explain what parts I agree or disagree with, and they turn around and see what they agree/disagree with, etc. I have accepted new ideas, realized things I didn't see before, and changed my opinions on things with little pain in this manner, without feeling like I'm violating myself.

I didn't feel like FineLine was giving me that option. It felt different with Edahn for some reason, though. And you just now, come to think of it.

Actually, there seems to be a "vibe" about INFP's that makes me feel like they're forcing their ideas on me, and not allowing me to question or disagree. This usually inflames me, although later I find that wasn't actually their intent. I just don't enjoy communicating with them, it always leaves me agitated and confused.