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  1. #61
    Senior Member ThatsWhatHeSaid's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Athenian200 View Post
    But I don't know how to connect dots without making judgments. It's like I can't even see a situation without making judgments about it's nature to some degree. I probably did miss your point.
    Like I said before, connecting the dots isn't about thinking and judgments. It's just about listening attentively and sincerely. You already know how to do it. It's natural and built in you (see: mirror neurons). To get in touch with that, you have to give your calculating mind a break and just be there as best you can. Your job in listening isn't to accomplish anything spectacular; it isn't to solve things for the person, or to get people to like you. No one expects you to understand everything and be 100% empathic and see all of these connections. Being sincere is enough, even if you suck at empathy. I really hope this helps.

    I would say that I judge everything the same way, and there might be harshness in that.
    I was kinda sensing that. You're the ideal candidate for silly therapy. The idea was inspired by the INFJ I mentioned in my prior post. I can feel the pressure you put on yourself and it feel immensely burdensome. A little respite is well deserved.

  2. #62
    RETIRED CzeCze's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Haight View Post
    Five Stars!

    For an interesting exercise, go read the rules at INTJforum
    I just popped over there and looked at their FAQ.



    O.M.G. Ugly formatting is against the rules?

    Hahahhahaa.

    Off the wall/chain/hook anal retentiveness.

    Just goes to show the huge difference in approach between different personality types. This particular forum would crumble if those rules were imposed. I personally would not make it past "how u doin' ???"
    “If you want to tell people the truth, make them laugh, otherwise they'll kill you.” ― Oscar Wilde

    "I'm outtie 5000" ― Romulux

    Johari/Nohari

  3. #63
    Per Ardua Metamorphosis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CzeCze View Post
    I just popped over there and looked at their FAQ.



    O.M.G. Ugly formatting is against the rules?

    Hahahhahaa.

    Off the wall/chain/hook anal retentiveness.

    Just goes to show the huge difference in approach between different personality types. This particular forum would crumble if those rules were imposed. I personally would not make it past "how u doin' ???"
    Me neither. In fact, I never even bothered to make a post.
    "You will always be fond of me. I represent to you all the sins you never had the courage to commit."

    Reason is, and ought only to be the slave of the passions, and can never pretend to any other office
    than to serve and obey them. - David Hume

  4. #64
    a white iris elfinchilde's Avatar
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    ^ Just wondering if it isn't too much of a stretch asking not just one, but an entire group of INTJs, to conform to set rules which they did not personally create.

    "Rules are just guidelines." ain't it?
    You gave me hyacinths first a year ago;
    They called me the hyacinth girl.
    Yet when we came back, late, from the Hyacinth garden,
    Your arms full, and your hair wet, I could not
    Speak, and my eyes failed, I was neither
    Living nor dead, and I knew nothing,
    Looking into the heart of light, the silence.

    --T.S Eliot, The Wasteland

  5. #65
    ~dangerous curves ahead~
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    Quote Originally Posted by Athenian200 View Post
    But when there's a conflict, doesn't that mean I'm forced to accept someone else's without them explaining their reasoning? I don't really like the idea of having other people's experiences and values shoved down my throat with nothing else to appeal to to protect myself from that. People's personal experiences and values can be a poor substitute for really understanding a situation by examining it.
    No, no one is saying you have to accept it without questioning. That is what you're doing now, questioning. And that is a good thing. In a system of absolutes, this would not have been tolerated. The fact that you do dare to raise it, should also demonstrate that it gives room for our personal doubts to be addressed, right?

    It is if you have doubts, and you do not raise it, and become secretly unhappy, that is wrong.

    I don't really feel like growth is automatically the best thing there is. I only want to grow towards being better and understanding more, not just in any which way. I don't really see life in terms of opportunities and seeking growth. I see it more as setting and occasionally reassessing goals while avoiding pain.
    Pain is inavoidable. People will always disappoint you, and you, yourself, in one way or the other. Sometimes staying safe could mean stagnation.

    We all seek to grow towards being better and understanding more. But sometimes, it is not a straight line up. Like the stock markets. The general trend is up, but sometimes, there are dips and spikes. Focus not on the dips. But on the overall. You cannot control every dip and spike. All you can do is provide the ground for an overall up.

    So, you see the goals there, and you set them. The reassessment comes when new information comes in, the way you're doing now, methinks?

    The same way we all do here, isn't it? It is why I said it is a system of relativity. We're all constantly reassessing what works and what doesn't. For forum dynamics, and real life, we do need that adaptability. And we do need to take the falls before we can move for another high.

    Well, no. But the way I see it, I only really need to agree with the people I'm going to interact with on the rules governing the behaviors I take, and those that the people who around me take. That's significantly less work. And the systems that are normally defined by people and governments seem to cover more of these than I would ever use in most cases. Honestly, it almost seems like there are enough people like me that are confused without having enough rules and systems in place to prevent people from forcing particular values and experiences down people's throats, and are afraid of what is unknown, that they have shaped certain aspects of our society. I can see things in society that reflect my own thinking. One of them is something many people complain about... bureaucracy and "red tape." Is that sad?
    It is never sad if you can see another viewpoint.

    Red tape comes about precisely because we're always trying to control things to give us definite outcomes. But in the area of relationships, there are no such definitions possible all the time?

    But how I can I rely on something that isn't really tangible? Okay, what reason do people have to be my friend and become a part of my support network, and stay there for a while, merely because I respect them and am honest with them? If that were all that was really needed, wouldn't other people have already figured this out and mined up all the available support for themselves in order to succeed, leaving everyone else at their mercy?
    You're friends with someone, in spite of. Not only because of, simply. It means you accept the good, with the bad. You take someone as they are. You know they may hurt you, or betray you. But overall, you know you're better off with them, than without them. There must be enough reason to bear the risk of betrayal, if that makes it clearer for you?

    For tangibility, look to actions to support the words. Whom is by your side, guiding you, advising you. Whom pulls you back sometimes. Whom challenges you.

    There is an equal trade. It is not true you're giving nothing. By being honest with someone, and talking over things with them openly, you're giving up an element of self-defense. Making yourself vulnerable. You are trusting someone else. it sounds easy, but it isn't. Being truly vulnerable is not easy. Not everyone figures it out, simply. And yes, it'd be nice if you stood up for them too. It is not demanded. But simply, as you wouldn't trust someone who wouldn't stand up for you, why would they trust you if you failed to do the same?

    Yes, trust can sometimes be abused. But it can also be repaid. But you'd not know till you give it a shot.

    Re: Mined up all available support to succeed. That is using others, and not really a relationship of equals or mutual support. That is not trust.

    But I have no way of knowing that I matter to anyone. People say I do, but they could just be saying that so they can get what they want, and then don't really plan to support me or be a real friend. It seems like a reasonable thing to apply to friendships, but I would like to have something to fall back on to stay alive and not be punished unfairly that doesn't depend on people liking me. Something a little more visible and reliable, you know what I mean?
    There are no guarantees in relationships, be they among lovers, friends, or even family. I know your pain there. I always sought a white certainty too. I was always disappointed looking for that.

    It is a process of trial and error. Learning.

    Am I helping you or making you more confused?


  6. #66
    Senior Member alcea rosea's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dana View Post
    I don't think she was referring to tangible threads (i.e. posts, PMs, threads)... I thought she was just referring to abstract influences on one's judgment of another.

    Could be wrong.
    Yes, you got it. By social pressure I mean how people influence the judgement of another. Good way of describing it!

    So my original idea was try to explain to Athenian that social pressure (how people influence the judgement of another) will affect the forcing of rules too. That much have been admitted here by the admins also and it's only human. So not only logic is affecting people's bahavior or rules because people aren't 100% logical creatures. People are affected by the social environment, social pressure, social interactions etc. Those invisible social rules are not necessarily written anywhere that is why athenian you are not able to see them and I don't see them either. They are invisible rules that has to be found out, has to be sensed by your intuition (this one you will love, use S to ge N ).

    Wandering - I haven't been able to find that theory online. That means I'll have to go to library in one of these days and find the social psychology book there. When I do find it (the theory), I'll start a new thread about it.

  7. #67
    Protocol Droid Athenian200's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by aelan View Post
    No, no one is saying you have to accept it without questioning. That is what you're doing now, questioning. And that is a good thing. In a system of absolutes, this would not have been tolerated. The fact that you do dare to raise it, should also demonstrate that it gives room for our personal doubts to be addressed, right?

    It is if you have doubts, and you do not raise it, and become secretly unhappy, that is wrong.



    Pain is inavoidable. People will always disappoint you, and you, yourself, in one way or the other. Sometimes staying safe could mean stagnation.

    We all seek to grow towards being better and understanding more. But sometimes, it is not a straight line up. Like the stock markets. The general trend is up, but sometimes, there are dips and spikes. Focus not on the dips. But on the overall. You cannot control every dip and spike. All you can do is provide the ground for an overall up.

    So, you see the goals there, and you set them. The reassessment comes when new information comes in, the way you're doing now, methinks?

    The same way we all do here, isn't it? It is why I said it is a system of relativity. We're all constantly reassessing what works and what doesn't. For forum dynamics, and real life, we do need that adaptability. And we do need to take the falls before we can move for another high.



    It is never sad if you can see another viewpoint.

    Red tape comes about precisely because we're always trying to control things to give us definite outcomes. But in the area of relationships, there are no such definitions possible all the time?



    You're friends with someone, in spite of. Not only because of, simply. It means you accept the good, with the bad. You take someone as they are. You know they may hurt you, or betray you. But overall, you know you're better off with them, than without them. There must be enough reason to bear the risk of betrayal, if that makes it clearer for you?

    For tangibility, look to actions to support the words. Whom is by your side, guiding you, advising you. Whom pulls you back sometimes. Whom challenges you.

    There is an equal trade. It is not true you're giving nothing. By being honest with someone, and talking over things with them openly, you're giving up an element of self-defense. Making yourself vulnerable. You are trusting someone else. it sounds easy, but it isn't. Being truly vulnerable is not easy. Not everyone figures it out, simply. And yes, it'd be nice if you stood up for them too. It is not demanded. But simply, as you wouldn't trust someone who wouldn't stand up for you, why would they trust you if you failed to do the same?

    Yes, trust can sometimes be abused. But it can also be repaid. But you'd not know till you give it a shot.

    Re: Mined up all available support to succeed. That is using others, and not really a relationship of equals or mutual support. That is not trust.



    There are no guarantees in relationships, be they among lovers, friends, or even family. I know your pain there. I always sought a white certainty too. I was always disappointed looking for that.

    It is a process of trial and error. Learning.

    Am I helping you or making you more confused?

    I just can't live that way, I'm sorry. I'm not willing to open myself up to people and let them screw me over because the experience might be beneficial later on. I'm not someone who's willing to open themselves up to abuse and get myself into situations where various other people can force me to be around them or do something for them against my will because of some threat (legal, health, career, etc) that they hold over my head. I want some semblance of a guarantee against that which isn't dependent on people liking me, or I'll never trust anyone.

    I can't live in such a constant state of ambiguity. I just can't think that way all the time. I can refocus periodically, but I can't constantly think that way. That's just too much, I need structure. Sorry, I'm just not able to deal with this.

    Note that it's fairly easy for me to trust people here, because I'm fairly safe behind my keyboard and four walls, so it's not like you could really do anything to me from where you are, or really have a reason to come here if that was what you wanted to do. You could hurt me emotionally/socially in the context of the forum, of course, but that's all you could do. There's a lot more to fear in the real world, unfortunately.

    Life without definite rules is a terrifying thing. You have to, single-handedly, ceaselessly outwit and outmaneuver everyone around you 24/7, while they cooperatively in rapidly changing alliances and rivalries, that you have to predict and play off of one another, use every trick they can think of against you in order to take everything they can from you to improve their own life unless you succeed each time. And the deck is always stacked against you because many of them are more experienced, have more intrinsic intelligence, more creativity, and have particular natural talents they can use. How does everyone else tolerate this in stride, why does it not seem awful to anyone else? It's like living in a nightmarishly difficult strategy game.

    So now I know what's expected of me, and I also know that it's not something I can reasonably be expected to cope with.

  8. #68

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    ^
    That, as they say, is life. I don't mean to be glib or condescending. I just mean that you've accurately described what it means to be a living human on this planet. This is what people mean when they say "Life is not fair." It's more than a tired aphorism, it's the truth. Any attempt to make life fair, like law, is at heart an artifice. It doesn't seem awful to anyone else because I think most people have an intrinsic understanding that this is the case and have learned to accept it. I think most others also have more faith in their fellow man than you do. Just because your fellow man CAN hurt you doesn't mean he will. I think most people are as likely to help you as hurt you.

    You can either jump in and try to swim, or you can curl into a little ball in the corner. I hope you come to find that the former is more rewarding than the latter.
    Everybody have fun tonight. Everybody Wang Chung tonight.

    Johari
    /Nohari

  9. #69
    a white iris elfinchilde's Avatar
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    Concur fully with FMW.

    Quote Originally Posted by Athenian200 View Post
    I can't live in such a constant state of ambiguity. I just can't think that way all the time. I can refocus periodically, but I can't constantly think that way. That's just too much, I need structure. Sorry, I'm just not able to deal with this.

    Life without definite rules is a terrifying thing. You have to, single-handedly, ceaselessly outwit and outmaneuver everyone around you 24/7, while they cooperatively in rapidly changing alliances and rivalries, that you have to predict and play off of one another, use every trick they can think of against you in order to take everything they can from you to improve their own life unless you succeed each time. And the deck is always stacked against you because many of them are more experienced, have more intrinsic intelligence, more creativity, and have particular natural talents they can use. How does everyone else tolerate this in stride, why does it not seem awful to anyone else? It's like living in a nightmarishly difficult strategy game.

    So now I know what's expected of me, and I also know that it's not something I can reasonably be expected to cope with.
    My dear. This IS life. And you can cope with it. It is simply whether you choose to, or not. Don't underestimate your own strength.

    Perhaps if it helps: find someone you trust, who is good in the social game. And then, you can slowly learn by mimicry. The way how, for me, Fe isn't strong, so i pick up from aelan/other people, on how to behave in social contexts, and in this way, it is conceivable to form a set of rules on how to behave in emotive settings.

    because what you've been understanding, is the rational logic behind actions. The thing is that, humans are by and large emotional, not logical. What you hence need to improve on now, perhaps, is to understand the emotive logic behind actions.

    That is why, in law, there is justice, but too, there is mitigation and mercy. Which was what Jennifer and Met were trying to say. The grounds are always shifting, Athenian. There is never any solid rules in life.
    You gave me hyacinths first a year ago;
    They called me the hyacinth girl.
    Yet when we came back, late, from the Hyacinth garden,
    Your arms full, and your hair wet, I could not
    Speak, and my eyes failed, I was neither
    Living nor dead, and I knew nothing,
    Looking into the heart of light, the silence.

    --T.S Eliot, The Wasteland

  10. #70
    Protocol Droid Athenian200's Avatar
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    I refuse. I curse this life, and everyone who appreciates it. I will not learn to drink this filth gleefully.

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