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  1. #51
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    Why is it after Haight posts, a thread tends to freeze up?

    Athenian:

    I think you've found your answer gradually as this thread progressed. But the difficulty you have is in accepting it, isn't it?

    There are more ways to live than one, and more ways of perceptions and understandings than one.

    To draw a parallel: The absoluteness of objectivity, via a clearly defined set of rules, works in some cases, when dealing with binary systems for e.g.

    But with humans, to do this would mean you'd end up defining infinitesimal rules for every single action and reaction. Theoretically possible, but practically, it would kill a lot of opportunities for growth.

    Fuzzy logic/network logic works better. The relativity offers the chance of redemption and growth, in a way. "Learn as you go along" approach. Understand where someone is coming from, and you'd know how to deal with them better. e.g. a starving child who steals, vs a grown adult who is stealing for kicks. Due process of law would treat both the same. But if you understood the background of someone, would you judge the child differently, in all fairness? Is it not further abuse to send that child to jail for e.g.

    Making the right choice, is not always making the best choice. And the best choice is never a perfect one with humans.

    'Tis why the process for any system that wishes to grow, needs be relative, vs absolute.

    Your fear is that you'd be rejected if you went too far, without knowing what "too far" is, isn't it? But it is the very system of relativity which gives you the chance for redemption, should you go too far too, do you see that?

    In the way, me, or whatever, I'm sure, would pull you back if we thought you were going to be jumped off a cliff.

    In the way the mods/admins would probably PM you separately to explain further before things go badly wrong.

    In the way if you were to be banned, there'd be a chance of coming back.

    So, don't fear the unknown. You'd never be able to define rules for everything. But it should not be the reason to avoid everything.

    Just know that broadly, if you treat others with respect, if you're honest with where you're coming from, you'll cultivate friendships and a support network. Then you'd not go wrong, both here, and in real life.

    You'd make mistakes, as we all do. But you'd have the support of people whom you matter to.

    That's what a system of relativity offers. Second chances.

  2. #52
    Protocol Droid Athenian200's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by aelan View Post
    Why is it after Haight posts, a thread tends to freeze up?

    Athenian:

    I think you've found your answer gradually as this thread progressed. But the difficulty you have is in accepting it, isn't it?

    There are more ways to live than one, and more ways of perceptions and understandings than one.
    But when there's a conflict, doesn't that mean I'm forced to accept someone else's without them explaining their reasoning? I don't really like the idea of having other people's experiences and values shoved down my throat with nothing else to appeal to to protect myself from that. People's personal experiences and values can be a poor substitute for really understanding a situation by examining it.
    But with humans, to do this would mean you'd end up defining infinitesimal rules for every single action and reaction. Theoretically possible, but practically, it would kill a lot of opportunities for growth.
    I don't really feel like growth is automatically the best thing there is. I only want to grow towards being better and understanding more, not just in any which way. I don't really see life in terms of opportunities and seeking growth. I see it more as setting and occasionally reassessing goals while avoiding pain.
    So, don't fear the unknown. You'd never be able to define rules for everything. But it should not be the reason to avoid everything.
    Well, no. But the way I see it, I only really need to agree with the people I'm going to interact with on the rules governing the behaviors I take, and those that the people who around me take. That's significantly less work. And the systems that are normally defined by people and governments seem to cover more of these than I would ever use in most cases. Honestly, it almost seems like there are enough people like me that are confused without having enough rules and systems in place to prevent people from forcing particular values and experiences down people's throats, and are afraid of what is unknown, that they have shaped certain aspects of our society. I can see things in society that reflect my own thinking. One of them is something many people complain about... bureaucracy and "red tape." Is that sad?
    Just know that broadly, if you treat others with respect, if you're honest with where you're coming from, you'll cultivate friendships and a support network. Then you'd not go wrong, both here, and in real life.
    But how I can I rely on something that isn't really tangible? Okay, what reason do people have to be my friend and become a part of my support network, and stay there for a while, merely because I respect them and am honest with them? If that were all that was really needed, wouldn't other people have already figured this out and mined up all the available support for themselves in order to succeed, leaving everyone else at their mercy?
    You'd make mistakes, as we all do. But you'd have the support of people whom you matter to.
    But I have no way of knowing that I matter to anyone. People say I do, but they could just be saying that so they can get what they want, and then don't really plan to support me or be a real friend. It seems like a reasonable thing to apply to friendships, but I would like to have something to fall back on to stay alive and not be punished unfairly that doesn't depend on people liking me. Something a little more visible and reliable, you know what I mean?

  3. #53
    Senior Member ThatsWhatHeSaid's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Athenian200 View Post
    I don't like to relate things to my own experiences, I want to relate them to something less individual than that, because forcing my own experiences to be a guideline for other people doesn't make sense. Just because I went through something doesn't automatically mean someone else deserves to go through it, or that what was created in me by the experience was automatically something desirable.
    I'm not sure what the bold parts have to do with anything. You seem to be stuck in making judgments and values, and that's not what we're talking about here. We're not talking about right and wrong, desirable and undesirable. We're talking about assuming the other person's perspective to simply connect the dots, not to judge the final picture. Maybe I didn't understand your response. Enlighten me, please.

    I don't see it this way. It's more, how do I know whether something is acceptable or not if the answer changes from moment to moment based on connections that aren't obvious? I'm just asking, am I literally going to be punished (rather unfairly) for not seeing and reacting to these connections, simply because some people expect me to be able to see and react to them?
    I'm not really good at thinking on my feet, and I don't really like to be spontaneous. I like to be able to know that I can avoid being in trouble/danger from not being able to see these connections quickly like many people can (I've found that I can see them, but I need time, and most people expect it rather automatically, which I can't do.)
    Okay. I'm not going to try to defend my analysis because the point is to help you, if I can, not to convince you of my superior analytical skillz. The point of what I said was to help you open a door to empathy and seeing those "connections," which again, I think are being hidden by your clinging too tightly to your intellect to help navigate through social exchanges because there's something you don't trust your natural self to do. And now, you've got a new layer of things to worry about...being "punished." *shrug* It's cool though.

    As to your question, who knows. Honestly? I judged you until you posted this. I still liked you, but I thought you were very rigid and mechanical. I still think you are, but I see it from a new angle -- hypothetically, a fear of rejection -- now. I can relate to that angle since I've experienced that myself in intimate relationships, so I wouldn't hold it against you anymore. Ironic, no? Perhaps what you could do is keep exploring the origin and causes of your fear of being punished. Once you have a grip on it, you can use it to inoculate people you're talking to, much in the way you've inoculated me.

    I don't want to just rely on hoping that other people don't become irritated enough by my actions to harm me, physically, legally, or other wise. I'd like something more substantial than that. I don't think the kind of thing I'm asking for is unreasonable.
    Just be sincere and listen with an open heart as best you can. I mean it.


    Athenian, would you say you judge yourself harshly?

  4. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by Athenian200
    But I have no way of knowing that I matter to anyone. People say I do, but they could just be saying that so they can get what they want, and then don't really plan to support me or be a real friend.
    You have to put yourself out there and make the first move. People like people that like them.

    Also, people trust people that trust them. See how this might apply to you.

  5. #55
    Large Member Ender's Avatar
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    I have to agree with Dana there.

    You've posted a few things in the past that have rubbed me the wrong way. The fact I'm an INFP and your comments in the past make it seem like you dislike us INFP's. Up until this thread I had basically just written off your comments, and linked your character to that of my brothers. However I don't dislike you for it, it's who you are and 27yrs of being around my brother has shown me that some people just can't change.

    Then you posted this thread, and instead of concreting that assumption it's almost the complete opposite. Now I feel like offering myself as springboard for any question you may have about a situation where you don't understand other's reasoning for their actions. Since you've actually expressed a desire to understand where others are coming from.

    The question is, would you be willing to discuss stuff with someone who thinks somewhat paradoxically?
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
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    I don't want it, I just need it, to breathe, to feel, to know I'm alive.

    Never take life to seriously.. No one gets out alive in the end anyway.

  6. #56
    Protocol Droid Athenian200's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dana View Post
    You have to put yourself out there and make the first move. People like people that like them.
    But I don't want to be assertive. Why do people like people that like them? How do they know whether they are actually liked, or whether someone else is pretending to like them?
    Also, people trust people that trust them. See how this might apply to you.
    Again, why is it so?

    Thanks for answering me, by the way. I was worried you might be mad that I thought it was wrong for you to circumvent your ban.

  7. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by Athenian200 View Post
    But I don't want to be assertive. Why do people like people that like them? How do they know whether they are actually liked, or whether someone else is pretending to like them?
    Sometimes a person just has to have faith and courage and push forward, dare to trust. Risk rejection. Rejection hurts but does not kill. Or I'd be long dead!

  8. #58
    Protocol Droid Athenian200's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ThatsWhatHeSaid View Post
    I'm not sure what the bold parts have to do with anything. You seem to be stuck in making judgments and values, and that's not what we're talking about here. We're not talking about right and wrong, desirable and undesirable. We're talking about assuming the other person's perspective to simply connect the dots, not to judge the final picture. Maybe I didn't understand your response. Enlighten me, please.
    But I don't know how to connect dots without making judgments. It's like I can't even see a situation without making judgments about it's nature to some degree. I probably did miss your point.

    As to your question, who knows. Honestly? I judged you until you posted this. I still liked you, but I thought you were very rigid and mechanical. I still think you are, but I see it from a new angle -- hypothetically, a fear of rejection -- now. I can relate to that angle since I've experienced that myself in intimate relationships, so I wouldn't hold it against you anymore. Ironic, no?
    This isn't quite as basic as that. I am willing to trust other people in general, but I want to have something to fall back on so that I'm not forced into a situation where I have to rely on them, and they can do what ever they want to me. I want to have some kind of standard aside from them that allows me to have an escape from a situation in case it reaches that point. I'm just concerned about what other people can force me to do in a legal sense, or from the perspective of threatening my life or security.

    If people just don't think well of me, but aren't going to do anything to me (such as kill me, physically harm me, destroy my career, or take things from me), then I can live with that, although I wouldn't like it.

    Athenian, would you say you judge yourself harshly?
    I would say that I judge everything the same way, and there might be harshness in that.

  9. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by Athenian200 View Post
    But I don't want to be assertive. Why do people like people that like them? How do they know whether they are actually liked, or whether someone else is pretending to like them?


    Again, why is it so?

    Thanks for answering me, by the way. I was worried you might be mad that I thought it was wrong for you to circumvent your ban.
    Are you saying that you want people to make the effort to get to know/like you, but you aren't willing to respond in kind? Or are you saying that you don't care if people like you and understand you or not.
    "You will always be fond of me. I represent to you all the sins you never had the courage to commit."

    Reason is, and ought only to be the slave of the passions, and can never pretend to any other office
    than to serve and obey them. - David Hume

  10. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by Athenian200 View Post
    But I don't want to be assertive. Why do people like people that like them? How do they know whether they are actually liked, or whether someone else is pretending to like them?
    You don't have to be assertive.. you just have to be receptive. People like to feel like they're being given a chance and not being put through an invisible test. How do they know whether they are actually liked? Well, some people pretend to like others, but most people don't.. or at least I give most people the benefit of the doubt. My adherence to that principle has served me well. I can think of a handful of people that have taken advantage of my receptiveness and niceness, but it didn't ruin everything for me. I had to chalk it up to some unknown factor getting in the way of their taking to me.


    Quote Originally Posted by Athenian200
    Again, why is it so?

    Thanks for answering me, by the way. I was worried you might be mad that I thought it was wrong for you to circumvent your ban.
    Why is it so with trust? Well... when someone doesn't trust you... it's insulting. It means they have judged you before you have done something worthy of deeming untrustworthy. That gives you a reason not to trust them, because no matter what you do.. you do not know what their internal response will be.

    I do like you, and I don't hold any of that against you.

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