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  1. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by CzeCze View Post
    I'm saying this because honestly I think you are a bit intractable and you are also still young (and therefore naive, I think being pummeled out in the world will give you the perspective you are asking people for in your thread -- unfortunately we cannot provide it for you, it's something you will discover for yourself) so it's not going to do you any good IMHO to wildly second-guess yourself and assume other people are following a 'truth' that you can't see. You're going to end up totally lost and I don't think that's gonna do anyone any good. Again, I think the answers you seek will be found in the real world, more over, your real life, and with time.
    This "school of hard knocks" thing is, unfortunately, likely to become true. We all go through this venturing out in the world however and we all surivive it.

    I am always thinking there can be a way to soften the blow of this venture out in the world for people I care about through sharing perspectives but maybe that's impossible.

  2. #42
    Protocol Droid Athenian200's Avatar
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    So, if I understand correctly, the reason rules are not enforced absolutely is because rules are purposefully made stricter than the level at which they intend to enforce them, because it is in the nature of people to enforce them in a manner that isn't literal. So, if they spelled out exactly what it was that needed to be done, people would relax from that level and there wouldn't be enough order to even maintain society.

    So in other words, those who enforce and create law have to take into account their own limited faculties and resources and the limitations of the faculties and resources of the people they govern. Do I understand correctly?

    So the priority, then, becomes finding what works for preserving a workable state of overall harmony, rather than simply enforcing the rules that have been set down.

    This would involve prioritizing some things over others so that the most important things are preserved, while others are discarded if necessary for the sake of those things.

    In Dana's instance, then, it was indeed determined that she was wrong to circumvent her ban. However, due to the fact that she succeeded for so long, and succeeded while contributing positively to the forum, it was judged that the positive impact of her contributions to the forum was greater than the negative impact of her breaking the rules. Because here, retaining those who make positive contributions is weighted above maintaining the rules consistently and ensuring that they are respected.

    For some reason, there is less fear that people would exploit lax enforcement, or that not being asked to apply things consistently could result in people being treated unfairly because a particular group of people disagree with or dislike them.

  3. #43
    Emerging Tallulah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Athenian200 View Post
    So, if I understand correctly, the reason rules are not enforced absolutely is because rules are purposefully made stricter than the level at which they intend to enforce them, because it is in the nature of people to enforce them in a manner that isn't literal. So, if they spelled out exactly what it was that needed to be done, people would relax from that level and there wouldn't be enough order to even maintain society.

    So in other words, those who enforce and create law have to take into account their own limited faculties and resources and the limitations of the faculties and resources of the people they govern. Do I understand correctly?

    So the priority, then, becomes finding what works for preserving a workable state of overall harmony, rather than maintaining consistency with a particular rule.
    Yes...to a certain extent. I mean, people know that killing and stealing are flat-out wrong, but there are also exceptional circumstances. But yeah, essentially, the rules aren't there for their own sakes. As someone said earlier, they are there to protect people, and the enforcers get to decide whether to apply mercy or justice on the people's behalf.

  4. #44
    Senior Member ThatsWhatHeSaid's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Athenian200 View Post
    But many of the rest of you think in a way that I can't even relate to. You seem to see something that I can't see, by which a person's collective actions and your perception of their nature modify the consequences of an individual action. It's as if you see some kind of invisible "thread" linking all these actions together in a particular way, and from it you calculate what a person's intent is, whether their action is good or bad, what effect it had, and what is justified regarding the collective nature of all of that information I don't even see or process.
    I think what you're talking about is empathy. When you feel what a person's feeling, and relate that to your own experience, you can start to get a sense of how that person feels and processes. The more you perspective-take, the more feelings you have to link together. That threads that links those different experiences together is a product of one's familiarity in recognizing patterns and a very natural process that happens almost spontaneously. So to summarize, empathy + familiarity --> "thread"

    You're trying to build this thread intellectually and it won't really work, because empathy isn't built on intellect. It's built on a lack of judgmentalism. You're tendency to judge others' action with your personal codes probably (my guess) interferes with that process.

    I would say that intellect becomes important insofar as it allows you to recognize patterns in behavior, but you need the empathy to start the process. I would somewhat even hesitate from calling the ability to descry pattern an "intellectual" process. That implies that it can be learned by reading a book, and I don't think that's true. It comes from being aware of nuances and seeing connections, which is linked to intellect. Kind of a linguistic mess here; I hope you appreciate what I'm trying to express here, though.

    The problem is, I don't even see that "thread." So this is very frightening to me because I feel like things are being judged by something that I can't even comprehend. And if I can't comprehend what I am being judged by, how can I hope to avoid negative consequences for my actions? How can I even know if I'm doing something wrong? Do I just have to hope other people will tell me before I make them too angry, and then try to follow their prescriptions without even understanding them?
    I find this thread (MBTIc thread) very interesting. The thing I've noticed about hardcore INFJs -- I only know about 3, so read this paragraph with caution -- is that they create elaborate rule structures and love sorting out behavior according to these networks. My cousin is notorious for doing this and she often gets lost in these mazes herself. I explored the root of that network with my cousin once. In a rather emotional moment, she confessed that it was all built around her own pain. Her network is designed to make sure that she doesn't get her feelings hurt because she is sensitive and can't bear it.

    And until now, I totally thought you were an INTJ, Athenian$1.99.

    That seems to be the only way to live... just try to avoid doing anything that might irritate someone, never trust them if there's even the slightest chance they could use it against you, and hope you remember all of their preferences so that you don't say anything that makes them mad. I won't enjoy living that way all of the time (although it would be fine for a while), but I don't really see an alternative.
    I think what this is really about is your own fear of rejection/abandonment. You're worried that you'll piss someone off and suffer an irreparable fracture in the relationship and that's something you can't really bear. So, you're looking for a system to help steer you away from that. This is really a question of "how do I trust that I can be myself, not offend anyone, and not get hurt by their absence/rejection?"

    There's no guarantee you're not going to offend someone. Conflict isn't just the nature of relationship that are honest, but they're part of human life in general. In fact, they're a good part of interaction. People grow from honesty, even if it leads to conflict (e.g., therapy and resistance). I believe that the second part -- your sensitivity to absence/rejection -- can definitely be changed, but ironically, it takes self-trust to create that change.

    Here's my advice: just do your best to be sincere. Do your best to listen. If you mess up, just apologize and smile. Your sincerity will be understood by most through your body language, and in the rare case that it isn't, you're still helping people more than hurting them. How so? By trying to intellectualize this whole process by keeping track of everyone's hot-spots, you'll just end up doing yourself, the person, and your relationship a disservice. Quality communication comes from honesty and spontaneity (check your own experiences) which is at the opposite end of intellectualization and thinking. It takes a while to retrain yourself, but you can take baby steps towards your goal, treating yourself with the same feelings of sincerity and attention you would offer another.

  5. #45
    Senior Member bluebell's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Athenian200 View Post
    So in other words, those who enforce and create law have to take into account their own limited faculties and resources and the limitations of the faculties and resources of the people they govern. Do I understand correctly?
    If I've interpreted what you're saying here, yes, that's the general idea. People who are appointed to those positions are often chosen because they display 'good judgement'.

    It's hard to define what this is precisely, but it's a way of knowing what the rules are, what the unwritten rules are, the particular circumstances, the implications of taking one course of action compared to another, knowing when to consult someone more senior and more experienced and when that's not necessary etc. It's sometimes even explicitly spelled out in job ads as one of the selection criteria 'must demonstrate good judgement'.

    I'm not sure if that's helped at all or not - hopefully I haven't made this even more confusing. I have trouble putting things into words sometimes.
    ...so much smoke pouring out of each chromosome.

  6. #46
    Protocol Droid Athenian200's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ThatsWhatHeSaid View Post
    I would say that intellect becomes important insofar as it allows you to recognize patterns in behavior, but you need the empathy to start the process. I would somewhat even hesitate from calling the ability to descry pattern an "intellectual" process. That implies that it can be learned by reading a book, and I don't think that's true. It comes from being aware of nuances and seeing connections, which is linked to intellect. Kind of a linguistic mess here; I hope you appreciate what I'm trying to express here, though.
    I don't like to relate things to my own experiences, I want to relate them to something less individual than that, because forcing my own experiences to be a guideline for other people doesn't make sense. Just because I went through something doesn't automatically mean someone else deserves to go through it, or that what was created in me by the experience was automatically something desirable.

    I think what this is really about is your own fear of rejection/abandonment. You're worried that you'll piss someone off and suffer an irreparable fracture in the relationship and that's something you can't really bear. So, you're looking for a system to help steer you away from that. This is really a question of "how do I trust that I can be myself, not offend anyone, and not get hurt by their absence/rejection?"
    I don't see it this way. It's more, how do I know whether something is acceptable or not if the answer changes from moment to moment based on connections that aren't obvious? I'm just asking, am I literally going to be punished (rather unfairly) for not seeing and reacting to these connections, simply because some people expect me to be able to see and react to them?

    Here's my advice: just do your best to be sincere. Do your best to listen. If you mess up, just apologize and smile. Your sincerity will be understood by most through your body language, and in the rare case that it isn't, you're still helping people more than hurting them. How so? By trying to intellectualize this whole process by keeping track of everyone's hot-spots, you'll just end up doing yourself, the person, and your relationship a disservice. Quality communication comes from honesty and spontaneity (check your own experiences) which is at the opposite end of intellectualization and thinking. It takes a while to retrain yourself, but you can take baby steps towards your goal, treating yourself with the same feelings of sincerity and attention you would offer another.
    I'm not really good at thinking on my feet, and I don't really like to be spontaneous. I like to be able to know that I can avoid being in trouble/danger from not being able to see these connections quickly like many people can (I've found that I can see them, but I need time, and most people expect it rather automatically, which I can't do.)

    I don't want to just rely on hoping that other people don't become irritated enough by my actions to harm me, physically, legally, or other wise. I'd like something more substantial than that. I don't think the kind of thing I'm asking for is unreasonable.

  7. #47

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    ^ Bluebell and Edahn have combined to give maybe the best answer.

    Deviation from strict adherence to rules is dependent on wisdom and judgement. We elect leaders largely based on judgement. The key point here is that judgement is a process in which people see the same evidence and come to a different decision...a form of chaos theory, if you will. And I think that's what's bugging you. The inconsistency that comes from people interpreting the same information and coming to different conclusions. As Edahn pointed out, the reason for this is that judgement is not a strictly intellectual process. It depends on empathy and character.

    For this reason, I would hesitate to say that we design laws that are stricter than we plan to enforce them. That's a more deliberate process than we really engage in. I think it's just that sometimes we're presented with a situation when the reasoning behind the law and the law as written are at odds. And this is when judgement is used to divine the best solution. When confronted with a decision that you feel is inconsistent with the rules, you may find it useful to try to think of the principle behind the rule instead of parsing the rule inflexibly.
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  8. #48
    Protocol Droid Athenian200's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bluebell View Post
    If I've interpreted what you're saying here, yes, that's the general idea. People who are appointed to those positions are often chosen because they display 'good judgement'.

    It's hard to define what this is precisely, but it's a way of knowing what the rules are, what the unwritten rules are, the particular circumstances, the implications of taking one course of action compared to another, knowing when to consult someone more senior and more experienced and when that's not necessary etc. It's sometimes even explicitly spelled out in job ads as one of the selection criteria 'must demonstrate good judgement'.

    I'm not sure if that's helped at all or not - hopefully I haven't made this even more confusing. I have trouble putting things into words sometimes.
    I believe I understood. Good Judgment is essentially having a record of making judgments that resulted in the most positive outcome possible (or at least averting the most negative), and having the ability to discern the most meaningful connections that govern the things I mentioned before that must have priority. It's probably a very important job, because not everyone can see those connections easily. I've met several people in real life who don't even understand it as well as I do, honestly. They can be more rigid than I am, and not even understand what is (to me) the clear way that one rule modifies another, and the manner in which they form a system designed around a particular idea. Whereas I can see that, but have some trouble understanding how circumstances that aren't even rules/principles change rules.

    I guess the levels of awareness differ. I really hope that who ever is enforcing the rules in various cases involving me is taking into account my limited awareness of how circumstances that aren't related to rules modify consequences, and doesn't simply do to me what ever most people think I would deserve because of their assumption that I am aware of this.

    It's almost like there are three levels, and I'm on the second one. First, there are people who only see rules that have to be obeyed, and don't understand the relationship between these rules, or how they form a coherent system. Second, there are people like me, who comprehend that there are rules, and understand the connections/threads between them within that particular system itself, and have an idea of why the system is desirable, but don't understand how things that aren't technically part of the system connect to and modify parts of it. Finally, there are people who can see several systems as part of an entirety, and comprehend how all of them affect one another, and what is desirable or undesirable on a higher level.

  9. #49
    Senior Member bluebell's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EffEmDoubleyou View Post
    Deviation from strict adherence to rules is dependent on wisdom and judgement. We elect leaders largely based on judgement. The key point here is that judgement is a process in which people see the same evidence and come to a different decision...a form of chaos theory, if you will. And I think that's what's bugging you. The inconsistency that comes from people interpreting the same information and coming to different conclusions. As Edahn pointed out, the reason for this is that judgement is not a strictly intellectual process. It depends on empathy and character.
    The bit I've bolded is why a lot of important decisions aren't placed in the hands of just one person. A real life example - someone is arrested for robbery. A large number of people are involved in the decision as to whether the person is a) actually guilty of the crime and b) if they are guilty, what punishment they should be given. There's the police who made the original arrest, the colleagues and senior staff at the police station who double-check that the arrest is plausible, the court system with lawyers, judges and juries.

    There is a reason why many laws are written with 'sentence to jail for no more than x years' - it allows the courts some discretion as to what punishment is appropriate for that particular crime.

    In terms of internet forums, such as MBTIc, the decision as whether someone has breached a particular rule or guideline is made by a team of mods and admins, each with their own particular experience and background.

    Quote Originally Posted by Athenian200 View Post
    I believe I understood. Good Judgment is essentially having a record of making judgments that resulted in the most positive outcome possible, and having the ability to discern the most meaningful connections that govern the things I mentioned before that must have priority. It's probably a very important job, because not everyone can see those connections easily. I've met several people in real life who don't even understand it as well as I do, honestly. They can be more rigid than I am, and not even understand what is (to me) the clear way that one rule modifies another, and the manner in which they form a system designed around a particular idea. Whereas I can see that, but have some trouble understanding how circumstances that aren't even rules/principles change rules.
    That's an excellent description of 'good judgement'. By the way, I'm impressed with your willingness to explore all of this and take on board people's explanations. That's the first step in developing 'good judgement'.

    Quote Originally Posted by Athenian200 View Post
    I guess the levels of awareness differ. I really hope that who ever is enforcing the rules in various cases involving me is taking into account my limited awareness of how circumstances that aren't related to rules modify consequences, and doesn't simply do to me what ever most people think I would deserve because of their assumption that I am aware of this.
    I think displaying 'good judgement' takes that into consideration. At some level, it's having trust and faith that people will understand where you're coming from and your background.
    ...so much smoke pouring out of each chromosome.

  10. #50
    Doesn't Read Your Posts Haight's Avatar
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    Five Stars!

    For an interesting exercise, go read the rules at INTJforum, study how they are written relative to here, and tell me what the differences are, how that would affect a forum differently, and tell me which you view as "better" for a forum community.

    Nice thread, by the way.
    "The only time I'm wrong is when I'm questioning myself."
    Haight

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