User Tag List

First 1624252627 Last

Results 251 to 260 of 262

  1. #251
    will make your day Carebear's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    MBTI
    INFP
    Posts
    1,449

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Xander View Post
    Oh and btw, contrary to Carebear's postulation I don't think you've really got a problem Athenian. You are prone to forgetting to allow for unforeseen elements but you are aware of it, subconsciously for the most part it seems. Also, however, I disagree with you that you are comfortable in your methodology. I think you know there's a flaw and it's driving you mad because you can't see it.

    Perhaps you are more N than S. You seem to be frustrated because you know you're on a path but it's not advancing fast enough for you and the feeling that there's more which you can't see is frustrating.
    Uhm...
    "I don't think you have a problem, like Carebear postulates." (I thought I'd made clear that I didn't anymore.)
    "Your only problem is..."

    Now who's being nonsensical?
    I have arms for a fucking reaosn, so come hold me. Then we'll fuvk! Whoooooh! - GZA

  2. #252
    Protocol Droid Athenian200's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2007
    MBTI
    INFJ
    Enneagram
    4w5
    Posts
    8,828

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Carebear View Post
    You attacked the theory based on something I didn't see it saying.


    Quote Originally Posted by FineLine
    2) Mature use of Fe:

    ...they use their Fe to study controversial subject and force-feed their inner network with new ideas, even when the process is painful.

    Eventually you will learn to use your Auxiliary in the way I described...

    ...The changing use of your Auxiliary is part of a natural progression; it will happen by itself and in its own time...


    ...I correctly represented current function theory.

  3. #253
    Lex Parsimoniae Xander's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    MBTI
    INTP
    Enneagram
    9w8
    Socionics
    INTj
    Posts
    4,463

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Carebear View Post
    Uhm...
    "I don't think you have a problem, like Carebear postulates." (I thought I'd made clear that I didn't anymore.)
    "Your only problem is..."

    Now who's being nonsensical?
    I can't help it if you keep doing a three point turn in your thinking. Pick the right direction first
    Isn't it time for a colourful metaphor?

  4. #254
    Lex Parsimoniae Xander's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    MBTI
    INTP
    Enneagram
    9w8
    Socionics
    INTj
    Posts
    4,463

    Default

    Athenian,
    You're an NF alright. Paranoid

    You did the underlining both when you read it first and when quoting.

    Now that's a flaw that most never get rid of.
    Isn't it time for a colourful metaphor?

  5. #255
    will make your day Carebear's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    MBTI
    INFP
    Posts
    1,449

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Athenian200 View Post
    Ah! This explains a lot! I didn't read FL's post thoroughly enough, it seems, instead basing my posts on the theory instead. Yes, I see how "force-feed" would be a nono for you. I see what he meant by it, though, but agree it was a poor choice of words. I think I see where you were coming from now.
    I have arms for a fucking reaosn, so come hold me. Then we'll fuvk! Whoooooh! - GZA

  6. #256
    will make your day Carebear's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    MBTI
    INFP
    Posts
    1,449

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Xander View Post
    I can't help it if you keep doing a three point turn in your thinking. Pick the right direction first
    Well, even if I did a turn, your "I don't think you have a problem, but your problem is..." is still nonsensical. I'm supposed to be the nonsensical one. Get back to your own territory.
    I have arms for a fucking reaosn, so come hold me. Then we'll fuvk! Whoooooh! - GZA

  7. #257
    Lex Parsimoniae Xander's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    MBTI
    INTP
    Enneagram
    9w8
    Socionics
    INTj
    Posts
    4,463

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Carebear View Post
    Well, even if I did a turn, your "I don't think you have a problem, but your problem is..." is still nonsensical. I'm supposed to be the nonsensical one. Get back to your own territory.
    The difference is between a problem (ie "we need to address this") and a quirk ("yeah he's always doing that"). One is something which is being targeted as undesirable and the other is a characteristic which while it may be undesirable is accepted as part of that persons personality.

    I realise you can't see this but think of it like your quirk is your "logic". Now I don't bother trying to change that (why waste time), I simply accept ( ) it as part of your personality... and ignore you.

    I dunno, such a simple divide.

    I'll put it down to that cheap dish water you innocently call "beer".
    Isn't it time for a colourful metaphor?

  8. #258
    Protocol Droid Athenian200's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2007
    MBTI
    INFJ
    Enneagram
    4w5
    Posts
    8,828

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Xander View Post
    The difference is between a problem (ie "we need to address this") and a quirk ("yeah he's always doing that"). One is something which is being targeted as undesirable and the other is a characteristic which while it may be undesirable is accepted as part of that persons personality.

    I realise you can't see this but think of it like your quirk is your "logic". Now I don't bother trying to change that (why waste time), I simply accept ( ) it as part of your personality... and ignore you.

    I dunno, such a simple divide.

    I'll put it down to that cheap dish water you innocently call "beer".
    Yeah, I think they do miss a lot of those subtleties. For instance, FineLine assumed I had rejected their entire idea, when in reality I took issue with one portion of it. He interprets this in a way that revealed the way he often sees things... working or not working, for no particular reason. But for me, it's more complex. I think it is for you, too. There are a couple of other odd things about INFPs that make it hard for me to get along with them:

    1. They don't appreciate skepticism. (INTP's seem willing to write it off as an aspect of my character without seeing it as a purely negative thing.)

    2. They're willing to implicitly force an idea of what's true upon you unapologetically by stating it in a particular way (but apparently don't try to do this until later in making a point, although I perceive the hint of it earlier). (INTP's don't seem certain enough of themselves to do this most of the time, and often even tacitly fall all over themselves to let you know they wouldn't do such a thing.)

    Anyway, one more analogy about force-feeding... can't you see how that would be a bit like a software vendor asking a network administrator to disable all their firewall and anti-virus software, just because they didn't take the time to write their software according to standards, and in such a way that it couldn't potentially compromise the system?

  9. #259
    will make your day Carebear's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    MBTI
    INFP
    Posts
    1,449

    Default

    Warning: A bit drunk now, but though it might cause a few typos, the content should be ok.

    Quote Originally Posted by Athenian200 View Post
    Yeah, I think they do miss a lot of those subtleties.
    I'm not sure I agree. I'm normally am quite good on subtleties (except perhaps subtleties of definitions, which I see as "basically the same thing, only with a fancy twist that doesn't really change the whole". Pisses the INTPs and INTJs off bigtime. ). But yes, we keep Ne-jumping to conclusions occasionally and test whether or not our understanding is correct.

    On a side note: You seem to be missing some subtleties in Xan's post (which you really have no way of seeing without knowledge you do not have.) Xander is mostly teasing and doing a standard INTPc routine here, playing on our common history on INTPc and bringing some INFP biases that reigned over there. Both to make fun of the bias and at the same time because he actually kind of mean it. But it really doesn't matter, as you agree with what he's saying, just wanted to let you know.

    For instance, FineLine assumed I had rejected their entire idea, when in reality I took issue with one portion of it. He interprets this in a way that revealed the way he often sees things... working or not working, for no particular reason. But for me, it's more complex. I think it is for you, too.
    I disagree with your analysis of FL. He did assume you rejected the entire idea and tested this assumption, but the rest doesn't fit at all in my eyes. I guess we'll know in a couple of weeks time when he gets back and can answer himself.

    There are a couple of other odd things about INFPs that make it hard for me to get along with them:

    1. They don't appreciate skepticism. (INTP's seem willing to write it off as an aspect of my character without seeing it as a purely negative thing.)
    I actually agree with this to a large extent. I know several INFPs who fit this category and who use Ne to defend their precious Fi's from anything that might be upsetting instead of objectively trying to understand. But then again I also know several INFPs who don't fit this description as all, but who can't stop their love for questioning everything and want others to do the same.

    2. They're willing to implicitly force an idea of what's true upon you unapologetically by stating it in a particular way (but apparently don't try to do this until later in making a point, although I perceive the hint of it earlier). (INTP's don't seem certain enough of themselves to do this most of the time, and often even tacitly fall all over themselves to let you know they wouldn't do such a thing.)
    I think this is more a matter of communication issues and how you perceive them than of how they work. To force an idea on someone is something an INFP will find alien and unachievable. It's Fe and Te land. If anything INFPs are even less certain of themselves and their views than INTPs. We know that our truth might be just that. Only ours. An INTP will be more certain of his reasoning behind an idea, relying on the underlying logic of it, while an INFP will have gone mostly by Ne and subjective values. If anything the uncertainty of the INFP will make him state it more boldly to provoke reaction so he can get feedback and remodel the statement.

    Anyway, one more analogy about force-feeding... can't you see how that would be a bit like a software vendor asking a network administrator to disable all their firewall and anti-virus software, just because they didn't take the time to write their software according to standards, and in such a way that it couldn't potentially compromise the system?
    Yes, but force-feeding wasn't his main point. It was an exaggerated and a bit sloppy way of describing the process. You bolded it when reading and quoting, but it wasn't what he was really talking about and doesn't feature on the page he linked to. And though he didn't state it as explicitly as others might, it wasn't a "drop all thought, here's what you MUST do, Athenian, or you're doomed". It was a way of seeing it which made sense based on his experience and which he offered for others to do with as they pleased. It was a real eye opener to me and several others I've spoken with, including my INFJ wife.

    Maybe it would be easier to get along with INFPs if you always assumed they didn't feel certain they knew the answer but only phrased it that way thinking that people are independent thinkers who won't feel too intimidated to dismiss something as nonsense or correct false assumptions if they think it doesn't fit?
    I have arms for a fucking reaosn, so come hold me. Then we'll fuvk! Whoooooh! - GZA

  10. #260
    Protocol Droid Athenian200's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2007
    MBTI
    INFJ
    Enneagram
    4w5
    Posts
    8,828

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Carebear View Post
    I'm not sure I agree. I'm normally am quite good on subtleties (except perhaps subtleties of definitions, which I see as "basically the same thing, only with a fancy twist that doesn't really change the whole". Pisses the INTPs and INTJs off bigtime. ). But yes, we keep Ne-jumping to conclusions occasionally and test whether or not our understanding is correct.
    I actually meant definitions... subtleties of how and why things work, rather than just perceiving what you think is the main element, and whether it works or not. There's more to something than just working or not working, things work for reasons, and you can often even see what a person was trying to do with an idea if they explain it rather than assert it, and where they went wrong. To me, that's like saying a computer "works" just because it powers on and runs applications, regardless of whether it can them well, or even crashes frequently, and simply "doesn't work" when there's one easily repairable component malfunctioning. It's a disregard for degree of accuracy, and the actual nature of the systems involved. That view seems rigid to me almost the way I seem rigid to you. I will say that you seem much better at dealing with the aspect I speak of than FineLine seemed to be, though.

    I respect that you want to test conclusions. I just think you should consider revising the conclusions when I say they don't work, and considering the validity of the reasons I put forth about why it doesn't work, and whether I made a mistake in interpreting what you said, rather than just feeling like I've dismissed you. I have a bad habit of assuming everyone does this automatically, because I can't imagine not doing this when conversing about something.

    On a side note: You seem to be missing some subtleties in Xan's post (which you really have no way of seeing without knowledge you do not have.) Xander is mostly teasing and doing a standard INTPc routine here, playing on our common history on INTPc and bringing some INFP biases that reigned over there. Both to make fun of the bias and at the same time because he actually kind of mean it. But it really doesn't matter, as you agree with what he's saying, just wanted to let you know.
    Well, what was the bias against them? I thought INTP's and INFP's got along very well, and almost never misunderstood one another. (I thought it was strange I react so differently to them, even though they both use Ne to interact with reality).

    I disagree with your analysis of FL. He did assume you rejected the entire idea and tested this assumption, but the rest doesn't fit at all in my eyes. I guess we'll know in a couple of weeks time when he gets back and can answer himself.
    Yeah, but he tested it in such a way that I had no idea what he was testing for, and it ended up leaning towards him being right about that assumption, even though I would have negotiated and explained if he had just asked outright. If anything, I probably became guarded because I noticed he was looking for something he wasn't mentioning directly, and I felt like I was being manipulated into illustrating something he had already decided was true, even though that wasn't his intention.
    I actually agree with this to a large extent. I know several INFPs who fit this category and who use Ne to defend their precious Fi's from anything that might be upsetting instead of objectively trying to understand. But then again I also know several INFPs who don't fit this description as all, but who can't stop their love for questioning everything and want others to do the same.
    I feel intimidated by all that passion, and it makes me feel like I'm being attacked personally for not being passionate about the same things they are passionate about, even though they can't justify their passions in any reasonable way. Again, that's probably not really the case, but it's a hard impression to shake.
    I think this is more a matter of communication issues and how you perceive them than of how they work. To force an idea on someone is something an INFP will find alien and unachievable. It's Fe and Te land. If anything INFPs are even less certain of themselves and their views than INTPs. We know that our truth might be just that. Only ours. An INTP will be more certain of his reasoning behind an idea, relying on the underlying logic of it, while an INFP will have gone mostly by Ne and subjective values. If anything the uncertainty of the INFP will make him state it more boldly to provoke reaction so he can get feedback and remodel the statement.
    I'm just confused as to why uncertainty would make a person bold rather tha timid? I don't feel proud of myself when I don't know something, in fact I just feel stupid for not understanding what the other person meant, because the idea makes sense from some perspective, and I'm not seeing it, possibly because their understanding of some part of the idea was incomplete/inaccurate when they expressed it, or I misunderstood what they expressed.
    Yes, but force-feeding wasn't his main point. It was an exaggerated and a bit sloppy way of describing the process. You bolded it when reading and quoting, but it wasn't what he was really talking about and doesn't feature on the page he linked to. And though he didn't state it as explicitly as others might, it wasn't a "drop all thought, here's what you MUST do, Athenian, or you're doomed". It was a way of seeing it which made sense based on his experience and which he offered for others to do with as they pleased. It was a real eye opener to me and several others I've spoken with, including my INFJ wife.
    Ah, so he wasn't specifically targeting it at me, telling me that I was immature because I don't incorporate information into my way of dealing with things without examining it, or that seems false to me? I assumed he was, since the discussion was about me. I also didn't get how he could just present an idea he thought was related, and not believe everything it was saying applied to my situation. I never checked the link, because he explicitly said he was making his best efforts to represent function theory accurately, so I assumed it made the same assertions he did, in the same way and as strongly as he did, without checking, and therefore rejected it.
    Maybe it would be easier to get along with INFPs if you always assumed they didn't feel certain they knew the answer but only phrased it that way thinking that people are independent thinkers who won't feel too intimidated to dismiss something as nonsense or correct false assumptions if they think it doesn't fit?
    I guess that doesn't make sense to me, because I think the idea has to be corrected right there in the open, otherwise I can't be sure I know what they meant. If I take it, look at it a different way to correct the parts that seem wrong to me, and don't discuss that, how will I know if what I came up with internally even resembles what they had in mind?

    Does this make sense?

Similar Threads

  1. [NT] How narcissistic are you (aware that you are)?
    By Economica in forum The NT Rationale (ENTP, INTP, ENTJ, INTJ)
    Replies: 46
    Last Post: 12-05-2015, 10:44 PM
  2. Replies: 8
    Last Post: 05-15-2013, 03:55 AM
  3. Replies: 9
    Last Post: 10-31-2012, 12:36 PM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
Single Sign On provided by vBSSO