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  1. #221
    will make your day Carebear's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    If my bulldozer can't peel potatoes, I have no use for it.
    I admit it would be awesome if it could. The swiss army knife of bulldozers. I'd definitely want one of those. With a wine opener, nail file and toothpick too, ofc. And easily carried in a small pocket.
    I have arms for a fucking reaosn, so come hold me. Then we'll fuvk! Whoooooh! - GZA

  2. #222
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Carebear View Post
    I admit it would be awesome if it could. The swiss army knife of bulldozers. I'd definitely want one of those. With a wine opener, nail file and toothpick too, ofc. And easily carried in a small pocket.
    Alternately, you could have a very BIG pocket... but then you'd also have to be wearing a very big coat.


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    "You're not my mother! You're a SNORT!"
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  3. #223
    Lex Parsimoniae Xander's Avatar
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    I can't believe I missed this thread for so long! It rules!!

    Athenian,

    You seem stuck. You cannot progress unless you know which is the best route to progress by in your own terms and yet you cannot find which answer is the best without actually doing it. Sure there are models and mockups (I base half my decisions based on such theories of the model being an accurate enough representation of real life but I'm one of em screwey INTPs so I'm safe ).

    What would you say to someone who's standing at the edge of the sea and seeming all nervous about trying to swim and yet is watching all the swimmers thinking "I'd like to try that"? Would you try to get them to try it? Would you tell them uselessly (from this Ts perspective) "It's nice" (a totally subjective comment)? Would you attempt to replicate the experience as a model and then present them with a virtual experience for them to base further judgements upon?

    At some point you've got to just get in there and have a go. This is true with everything, though crossing that threshold won't always be as easy.

    As for this whole judgement without rules, have you ever read a book? Something like Lord of the Rings or some such fantasy novel. Was it good?

    Now you could try and find singular instances of the book being good but most people would tell you that they thought the book was good or not in their opinion as a wholistic judgement on the book. You see it's not just that they used the word 'edge' four hundred and fifty three times in twenty five pages but the whole thing, the world it's set in, the characters, the plot, even the mood that they were in when they read it and what age they are. Hell first time I read the lord of the rings I thought it was fantastic. I re-read it recently and thought "what a boring book!! I can't believe I liked it.." I still thought it was average but no where near as exemplary as I did when I was twelve (or whenever it was).

    Are you familiar with the concept that every action and thing in this whole universe is connected to all the others? If you throw a pebble into a pool does not the water ripple out to the edges? If you put in the news paper that Wildcat was actually Elvis then would people not ask? If one thing can impact on a wide scale then context becomes important when you are analysing the aftermath and judging it. Shooting someone in cold blood is worse than shooting them in self defence. One you should find you can get away with where as the other is commonly more difficult to defend against in a court of law.

    (Hopefully not drawn too many circles there or repeated anyone's analogies.. I've been reading for so long I can hardly recall what was my idea and what I've read!!)
    Isn't it time for a colourful metaphor?

  4. #224
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    Quote Originally Posted by Carebear View Post
    Yes, I know. The Ni way. And yes, I see that I can connect the patterns in a whole series of clear and detailed pictures as well, but when the leadership has marked the points with numbers and following the numbers gives me a picture of a bunny, I'm content and think: Oh, so that's what they're aiming for. Huh! Good to know. I might personally think a bunny was a stupid thing to aim for and create something else myself for fun, but I won't be surprised or think "where did that come from?" when the leaders insist on it being a bunny. The lines of the bunny are only invisible if you refuse to draw it.
    Quote Originally Posted by Wandering View Post
    Yeah, I see what you mean. Problem is, Ni doesn't care about the lines themselves: it cares about the lines being in accordance with the background pattern. So saying "just draw the lines in already, and you'll see the bunny" won't make it budge, because sure it can see the bunny, but you have to twist the background pattern to get to the bunny so the bunny is not a valid option to begin with.

    That's where we need Te or Fe to come in and tell Ni "just draw the stupid bunny in for peace's sake or for consistency's sake or whatever!"

    And yes, it's pathetic sometimes.
    Great posts on the Ne/Ni difference!

    I have a busy week or two ahead and need to stay away from the message board and focus on real-world developments; so I'm just going to sum up according to my own lights and others folks can amend or comment as they please.

    As an Fi Dominant personality type myself, pretty much the same thing described above happens to me with Fi/Fe.

    Often enough I'm at least aware of the conventional Fe "fix" for handling a given situation. But either I don't trust the Fe fix, or I don't trust my own ability to operate in Fe mode, or the Fe fix simply contradicts my Fi self-definition. So I try to address the situation with my preferred Fi function.

    But if my Fi methods are clearly inadequate or inappropriate for the situation, then it may be time for a "reality check." It should be a given that my Fi isn't automatically the best way to address every situation; my Fi may simply be the wrong tool, or my Fi may be working with outdated values and information because it hasn't been keeping up with changes occurring in my life (new job, new relationship, new responsibilities, etc.)

    At any particular time it's a judgment call whether to use my preferred Dominant Fi or to work with/develop another function. But under the "reality check" principle, real-world results should always be at least one of the key considerations. And there are plenty of common rule-of-thumb tools for resolving conflicts over which function to use, such as Occam's razor, the Golden Rule, or even the Serenity Prayer. It's all pretty common sense; the problem is that people forget common sense in their desire to remain in their comfort zone and stick with their preferred Dominant function.

    Also, it's important to keep in mind that one's Dominant needs to be watched, updated, and in some cases reined in. For example: The judging functions (T and F) can get frozen in time and may still reflect oversimplistic and even unrealistic values learned as far back as childhood. Meantime, the constant churning of the perceiving functions (N and S) can become so energy-intensive that N- and S-Dominants have no time or attention left over for the real world and actively work to keep the real world at bay. So here are another couple good rules of thumb: Personal growth almost always entails leaving one's comfort zone. No pain, no gain. And a little pain now saves us from a lot of pain later.

  5. #225
    Mamma said knock you out Mempy's Avatar
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    But if my Fi methods are clearly inadequate or inappropriate for the situation, then it may be time for a "reality check." It should be a given that my Fi isn't automatically the best way to address every situation; my Fi may simply be the wrong tool, or my Fi may be working with outdated values and information because it hasn't been keeping up with changes occurring in my life (new job, new relationship, new responsibilities, etc.)
    On the topic of values, rules and principles (in effect, all judging functions: Te, Fi, Fe, Ti):

    For myself, I’ve adopted the mindset of using and doing what works for me. And you’re right, one function does not meet all my needs, achieve all my ends, or make me dynamic and adaptive. Different situations call for different behavior, and if you’re always trying to behave according to one set of values and principles, you’re going to find yourself running into conflict on pretty much a daily, if not hourly, basis.

    My Fi certainly has some values, but I’ve found I need to shed them like a skin in certain situations, not because I’m weak and can’t hold onto them, but because I know it helps me to stand outside myself and consider what would actually be the most adaptive and useful approach to a given situation. I always try to consider what would actually work for me, rather than what is simply congruent with my values and principles. Fi-dom types tend to fall back on their values in every circumstance, treating them like the compass by which to navigate the mysterious and confusing world of decision-making; it’s a common theme among them that congruence is the key to a healthy and happy life. But I know that the values and principles I've learned will not work best for me in every situation, and that congruence for congruence’s sake usually leads me to form debilitating habits and mindsets; it closes of possibilities and closes off adaptation. It’s like holding yourself to a rule for the sake of holding yourself to a rule. NO rule governing human behavior is applicable to all situations, and often there are much better options available and much better tools for getting the job done. (It's similar to what Athenian seemed to be doing in the thread about whether Dana should be banned or not; she was stubbornly insisting that the rules should apply in every situation, but Jennifer kindly pointed out that rules are not meant to enforce themselves, but rather they are meant to protect and aid people, which means they're somewhat flexible.)

    It’s not just values that cause stress. It’s also principles, which work under a similar theme of congruence. If I wanted to operate on the principle of efficiency (Te) all the time, I’d bring myself a lot of psychological pain, just as much as if I wanted to operate according to a particularly value, say, kindness, all the time. With efficiency as a guiding principle for behavior, I might run the risk of constantly feeling inefficient and underproductive; I might stress myself to accomplish the most I possibly could in a day, thus wearing myself out.

    One of my best INTJ friends does this; it’s one of the most consistent themes of her life, and it’s one of her greatest areas of concern and stress. Her journal is filled with powerful laments regarding how unproductive she feels; it’s common to see her write self-deprecating and bitter poetry about it. I’m guessing that’s a result of her depending too much on Te as a principle. Also, her tertiary (“third-rung”) Fi probably stubbornly reinforces the principle arbitrarily, saying, “Come on now, keep being productive! You’re on the right track, I know it! Keep it up!”

    But again, adhering to a rule in all situations for the sake of adhering to a rule is maladaptive. We all try to form these guiding lights for ourselves, but the simple truth of the matter is that almost no rule whatsoever, no matter how awesome it sounds, and no matter how well it works for you in some situations, will work for you in all situations. Honesty, for example, is something so many people are proud to adhere to, but you’d be lying to yourself (har har) if you thought it always yielded you the best results possible and made your life easier in every circumstance.

    So I treat things like this: either they work in a given situation, or they don't. If they don't, I know not to use them in similar situations, but rather to try something new next time and see how well that works instead, until I find something that yields me the results I want. I've given up trying to force my values and principles on every situation. I've given up trying to see situations as being governed by values and principles. What matters to me is what works for me, and congruence is only useful to me inasmuch as it is, well, useful; that is, congruence is something I adhere to in situations where congruence yields the results I want. For example, if I'm a teacher, I'm probably going to try to adhere to certain rules just so my students always know what I expect of them. In that case, consistency is probably useful, both to me and the people around me. But congruence isn't always useful. For example, if I consider rules simply as tools to protect and aid people (i.e., if I consider people as the purpose of rules, thus more important than the rules themselves), I'm probably going to listen to the story of a student who missed the final exam rather than failing him/her outright. I have to carefully weigh the pros and cons of my actions: if I make an exception for this student, that means I'm not 100% congruent, but I also want to be compassionate, and I want to serve my students rather than simply dictate to them.

    My Fi is inherently opposed to this: What?! The same principle doesn't work in every situation? The simple answer is: Nope.
    They're running just like you
    For you, and I, wooo
    So people, people, need some good ol' love

  6. #226
    Protocol Droid Athenian200's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xander View Post
    You seem stuck. You cannot progress unless you know which is the best route to progress by in your own terms and yet you cannot find which answer is the best without actually doing it. Sure there are models and mockups (I base half my decisions based on such theories of the model being an accurate enough representation of real life but I'm one of em screwey INTPs so I'm safe ).

    What would you say to someone who's standing at the edge of the sea and seeming all nervous about trying to swim and yet is watching all the swimmers thinking "I'd like to try that"? Would you try to get them to try it? Would you tell them uselessly (from this Ts perspective) "It's nice" (a totally subjective comment)? Would you attempt to replicate the experience as a model and then present them with a virtual experience for them to base further judgements upon?
    I don't really appreciate the idea of waiting around to learn things by experience. Experience can wear you down into accepting things that aren't really positive, useful, or true. I do actually create models in my mind that I use, and they often closely mirror reality... as long as I get enough information in them, that is. The mistake always comes when I leave something out.

    For instance, when I made those negative comments about those people that time. I assumed that the goal of the reputation system was to give an opportunity to neutrally assess how well posts contributed to the site without the normal concerns of how your actual opinion might affect the poster's perception of you, and I commented based on that assumption. My picture was of an anonymous suggestion box for each member.

    The problem was, though, that I didn't consider that the Admins might have a different use for the system in mind, and that they could use my information in any way they wished, regardless of how I expected them to use it. I learned that people are only constrained by what they think they can get away with, and what they value. So the moral is, never give anyone anything they can against you, unless you're fairly certain they value something that would prevent them from doing so. "You have the right to remain silent, any thing you say can and will be used against you" is very good/important advice. In that case, they didn't care what my inferences about the system led me to do, or how their changes would affect me because of that.

    But thinking back now, I'm wondering if it might not have been a better approach to quietly (via PM) ask that those specific comments be deleted beforehand without making a scene... If I'm not mistaken about their character, they probably would have been a lot more sympathetic if I had done that. I've also learned since then that it's possible to click on the scales again, and edit your comment away after you've given it. Come to think of it, if I hadn't been so mad at JJJ for creating that thread attacking my comment about him and how I made it, I probably wouldn't have said anything like what I did outwardly. Something about Fi expressions makes me want to blow up at and counter-react with outward passions in the opposite direction, and with the opposite sentiment, just out of spite and irritation with the structure of those values.
    At some point you've got to just get in there and have a go. This is true with everything, though crossing that threshold won't always be as easy.

    As for this whole judgement without rules, have you ever read a book? Something like Lord of the Rings or some such fantasy novel. Was it good?

    Now you could try and find singular instances of the book being good but most people would tell you that they thought the book was good or not in their opinion as a wholistic judgement on the book. You see it's not just that they used the word 'edge' four hundred and fifty three times in twenty five pages but the whole thing, the world it's set in, the characters, the plot, even the mood that they were in when they read it and what age they are. Hell first time I read the lord of the rings I thought it was fantastic. I re-read it recently and thought "what a boring book!! I can't believe I liked it.." I still thought it was average but no where near as exemplary as I did when I was twelve (or whenever it was).

    Are you familiar with the concept that every action and thing in this whole universe is connected to all the others? If you throw a pebble into a pool does not the water ripple out to the edges? If you put in the news paper that Wildcat was actually Elvis then would people not ask? If one thing can impact on a wide scale then context becomes important when you are analysing the aftermath and judging it. Shooting someone in cold blood is worse than shooting them in self defence. One you should find you can get away with where as the other is commonly more difficult to defend against in a court of law.
    I don't like the idea (which seems popular with many people) that I have to throw everything away on a risk without having any idea what will happen. I think I should at least try to learn as much as I can about something before I experience it, even if I obviously can't learn everything. It seems like a better approach to me, because it gives me ideas about how to deal with the situations that might arise. For instance, if before going to a wooded area, I learned about snakes and what to do if I were bitten by a venomous snake, I would fare better in that situation than if I had never learned what to do about such an occurrence. Does that make sense?

  7. #227
    mrs disregard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Athenian200 View Post
    I don't like the idea (which seems popular with many people) that I have to throw everything away on a risk without having any idea what will happen. I think I should at least try to learn as much as I can about something before I experience it, even if I obviously can't learn everything. It seems like a better approach to me, because it gives me ideas about how to deal with the situations that might arise. For instance, if before going to a wooded area, I learned about snakes and what to do if I were bitten by a venomous snake, I would fare better in that situation than if I had never learned what to do about such an occurrence. Does that make sense?
    Most situations aren't as simple as "If you get bitten by a venomous snake, you need to suck the venom out and eat sixteen blueberries within the next half-hour," so your know-it-all-with-no-experience approach won't serve you very well for the most part.

  8. #228
    Member skip's Avatar
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    I don't really appreciate the idea of waiting around to learn things by experience.
    Yet some understanding of life only comes with experience. That's one reason age is not just a number.

  9. #229
    Protocol Droid Athenian200's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dana View Post
    Most situations aren't as simple as "If you get bitten by a venomous snake, you need to suck the venom out and eat sixteen blueberries within the next half-hour," so your know-it-all-with-no-experience approach won't serve you very well for the most part.
    It isn't quite fair to say that I've only dealt with simple situations by learning as much as I could about them beforehand. I was using a simple example to illustrate. I didn't say that I could read a book about sports and then become a star athlete without experience or something. But sometimes knowing about what to expect in a situation allows you realize you can apply other experiences you've had to the new situation, by realizing the ways in which it is similar.

    I'm only saying that whether you have experience or not, you're still better off trying to find out as much about what could happen in a situation as you can before you enter it. Better a know-it-all with no experience than someone with no knowledge and no experience, right?

    And in some situations, experience can actually bias and hurt your understanding rather than help you. What about the experiences of the pre-Civil war era leading to discrimination because that's how things had been before? Their experience didn't lead them in the right direction, did it? Or what about someone who has spent their life taking risks and always came out on top, assuming that the dangers weren't real because nothing ever happened to them, even though they should have understood that the possibility was there? I'm just saying, it's not perfect either.

    So what I try to do is have knowledge first, then get experience. But then I may well go back periodically and examine what I think I've learned from my experience, in order to make sure I'm not blindly following what I've learned through experience. In other words, I try not to rely too strongly on any one system of dealing with life.
    Quote Originally Posted by skip View Post
    Yet some understanding of life only comes with experience. That's one reason age is not just a number.
    Skill comes with experience, definitely. But understanding is done by examination. You can experience something as much as you like and never understand it until you examine it. That's why it's possible to explain how it is something can be as it is, with enough definition and explanation, but it is never possible to simply explain skill in such a way as to impart it to someone.

  10. #230
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    I'm only saying that whether you have experience or not, you're still better off trying to find out as much about what could happen in a situation as you can before you enter it.

    I think you're right to a point. Watching a few shows where all multi-millionaire entrepeneurs were interview, the one thing they all had in common was that they ask and use in other ways experts in the field. They all said the knowledge of others was critical to their success. A good idea in all areas of life... ask someone more experienced. But, of course, don't let that thinking become compulsive and inhibiting just to live.

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