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  1. #201
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    Quote Originally Posted by Athenian200 View Post
    ...You're forcing your truth on me...
    Actually, no. I disagree. It's not my truth or my theory. I just paraphrased current theory on use of functions in my first post to show how it would apply to your case in particular (and in the process offended you with my choice of labeling).

    If you recall, I originally jumped into this thread to respond specifically to a post of yours where you asked how your issues worked out in function theory. Wandering said you don't seem to be using much Fe, and you asked what functions you are using. So I jumped in to explain that you are indeed using Fe but you're using it to screen out the world instead of incorporate the world into your Ni... (and the rest is history).

    If you want to contest the theory, you'll have to go elsewhere.

    And if you deliberately keep out the outer world and insist on maintaining your inner network pristine (or "filter" input from the world in such a way that you remain strictly in your comfort zone), then it's true that the theory says you'll become increasingly maladapted and incapable of dealing with the real world.

    It's nothing personal. I've just found that my own development as an adult pretty much matched function theory in retrospect. And I see function theory being played out in my acquaintances around me. So I've reflected function theory in my own posts.

    At this point your quarrel seems to be with the theory, and not with me personally. I suggest you investigate the theory in more detail and then write some papers for CAPT or some other official group refuting the theory.

    Again, this website provides a good representation of current theory on use of functions: INFJ Personal Growth

    [Edit:]

    Quote Originally Posted by Athenian200 View Post
    You're not giving much ground here. This isn't validating. You're completely dismissing it as immaturity all over again [...]
    Just to sum up:

    In your discussion with Wandering, you asked how you were using your functions. So I answered your question using standard function theory. Labeling may have been an issue, but otherwise I correctly represented current function theory.

    So you've decided that you don't like what function theory says and that you want to rewrite the theory? Fine. But that's really neither here nor there to me. I just answered your question as asked. There's no requirement that says I have to be "validating" (other than to agree that a certain amount of Fe "filtering" of input might be age-appropriate if you're of a young age).

    I think I'll drop out of the thread at this point, as promised. Sounds like we're back to square one, and I don't like going around in circles.

  2. #202
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    Quote Originally Posted by FineLine View Post
    I think I'll drop out of the thread at this point, as promised. Sounds like we're back to square one, and I don't like going around in circles.
    Sorry to hear that. I really think I misunderstood what you were saying. I wasn't aware that you were only trying to represent information that came from a particular source, rather than your own opinion. If I had known that, I would have reacted differently. When I read what you wrote, I assumed you had processed everything you were saying, and believed all of it applied to me specifically. I didn't realize it was an attempt to relate information that hadn't been completely processed by you already. It does seem more like your tendency is to figure out what you think someone else meant by something and repeat what you think they meant, rather than assessing the validity of it in relation to the specific situation yourself. This causes friction between us, apparently.

    I just don't understand why you're so scared to defend your arguments. The second I even halfway challenge you, you try to pass the buck onto the people who came up with the idea, and take no responsibility for explaining why you believe it, what you believe most and what parts you're not sure of, or defending this idea that seems valid to you. You just want to say that this is your interpretation of what someone you respect believed, and you think it is true, but that it's silly for me to inspect it closely, and not your problem that I chose to inspect it rather than respecting you enough to just believe in it. It's so strange, though. You're clearly bold enough to die for something you believe in, but you're absolutely terrified of/disgusted by the prospect of defending your ideas against criticism.

    Go in peace. We probably don't need to infuriate each other further, because it appears we can't see one another's perspectives.

    I notice you focused on the two least meaningful paragraphs in what I wrote.

  3. #203
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    Quote Originally Posted by Athenian200 View Post
    I just don't understand why you're so scared to defend your arguments. The second I even halfway challenge you, you try to pass the buck onto the people who came up with the idea, and take no responsibility for explaining why you believe it, what you believe most and what parts you're not sure of, or defending this idea that seems valid to you. You just want to say that this is your interpretation of what someone you respect believed, and you think it is true, but that it's silly for me to inspect it closely, and not your problem that I chose to inspect it rather than respecting you enough to just believe in it. It's so strange, though. You're clearly bold enough to die for something you believe in, but you're absolutely terrified of/disgusted by the prospect of defending your ideas against criticism.
    Okay, I cannot speak for Fineline, of course, but what you said strikes a cord in me.

    Sometimes P just drops out of discussion because they are bored/finished/on to something else/see the futility. Doesn't necessarily mean they are terrified to continue, just have no desire to.

    It doesn't seem like the stakes are that high here. I drop out of discussions all the time, doesn't mean I am terrified.

  4. #204
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    Quote Originally Posted by heart View Post
    Okay, I cannot speak for Fineline, of course, but what you said strikes a cord in me.

    Sometimes P just drops out of discussion because they are bored/finished/on to something else/see the futility. Doesn't necessarily mean they are terrified to continue, just have no desire to.

    It doesn't seem like the stakes are that high here. I drop out of discussions all the time, doesn't mean I am terrified.
    Thanks, Heart. Well said.

    Athenian:

    Basically, there is nothing more to say on my side. The function theory is what it is. I present the theory to you in answer to your question and for your general edification, and either it works for you or it doesn't. Personally, I'm not invested in whether or not you agree with it. Having presented the theory to you, I'm done with the discussion.

    If you want to continue wrestling with the theory, go to INFJ Personal Growth and tear apart the theory presented there. If you want, you could even quote bits of it here in this thread and then refute it or agree with it, as you please.

    But I don't see any need for you and me to wrestle over it. The theory works for me; apparently it doesn't work for you. Not much more to be said about it than that. *shrugs*

  5. #205
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    Quote Originally Posted by FineLine View Post
    But I don't see any need for you and me to wrestle over it. The theory works for me; apparently it doesn't work for you. Not much more to be said about it than that. *shrugs*
    Okay, I get you. I actually accept very few things as they are. I usually look at how an idea is presented, and compare it directly against my perception of reality, and then create my own idea based on that one. It's in my nature to examine and refine ideas in a more nuanced way than that.

    Basically, there is nothing more to say on my side. The function theory is what it is. I present the theory to you in answer to your question and for your general edification, and either it works for you or it doesn't. Personally, I'm not invested in whether or not you agree with it. Having presented the theory to you, I'm done with the discussion.
    As strange as this may sound, I think your view of reality is too rigid. (Believe me, I'm going myself.) It's as if an entire idea either "works" or "doesn't work." There's not a whole lot of "why does it work," "how does it work," or "do some parts work while others don't, and if so which ones" going on in your mind. It's like a strict dichotomy between working as-is and not working as-is, with no room for nuance or editing. But for me, it's not enough to know if it works, it also has to be as correct and useful for the situation as possible.

    So, it's like I'm rigid in that I either accept or reject ideas, with little nuance between acceptance and rejection. You're rigid, on the other hand, in that you see something as either working or not, with little nuance or exploration about how or why.

    But I feel a lot better about you now, since you've explained how you process things. Thank you very much.

  6. #206
    RETIRED CzeCze's Avatar
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    Just a placeholder for future questions and comments.

    I decided to watch the continuing the discussion unfold more.
    Last edited by CzeCze; 04-05-2008 at 08:53 AM. Reason: Content
    “If you want to tell people the truth, make them laugh, otherwise they'll kill you.” ― Oscar Wilde

    "I'm outtie 5000" ― Romulux

    Johari/Nohari

  7. #207
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    [Place-holder for future rebuttal]

  8. #208
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    Quote Originally Posted by Athenian200 View Post
    Can you please tell me what seems to be wrong with it, in your opinion?

    My worldview wasn't one of the current reality, but of what I imagine things to be like without reasonable rules, which is why I try to preserve them.

    Here's that idea, one more time:



    So you can see why I would value rules, right? Of course, such a world might not be so terrifying for an xNTP (especially ENTP)...
    Mostly it is a question of power.

    Just you, posting on the internet? I don't care much.

    Put you in a position of power over me? You seem incapable of being reasoned with. Then we start the revolution.

  9. #209
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    Invisible Threads of Justice

    And he went off to Andy's house
    A'skippin' through the backwoods quiet as a mouse
    Came upon some tracks too small for Andy to make
    He looked through the screen at the back-porch door
    And he saw Andy lyin' on the floor
    In a puddle of blood and he started to shake

    Well, the Georgia Patrol was a'makin' their rounds
    So he fired a shot just to flag 'em down
    And a big-bellied sheriff got his gun and said "why'dya do it?"
    And the judge said "Guilty" in a make-believe trial
    And slapped the sheriff on the back with a smile
    Said' supper's waitin' at home and I gotta get to it"

    That's the night that the lights went out in Georgia
    That's the night that they hung an innocent man
    Well, don't trust your soul to no backwoods Southern lawyer
    'cause the judge in the town's got bloodstains on his hands

    Well, they hung my brother before I could say
    The tracks he saw while on his way
    To Andy's house and back that night were mine
    And his cheatin' wife had never left town
    And that's one body that'll never be found
    See, little sister don't miss when she aims her gun

  10. #210
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    Quote Originally Posted by MacGuffin View Post
    Mostly it is a question of power.

    Just you, posting on the internet? I don't care much.

    Put you in a position of power over me? You seem incapable of being reasoned with. Then we start the revolution.
    Power? The idea of having power rather than obeying it didn't even cross my mind.

    It's slightly ironic that you imagine me having power over you in a situation, when it is actually you that has power over me.

    Actually, there's a good chance that I would be more merciful in how I applied rules if I were the one applying them. I'd make sure the person knew exactly what they technically deserved, tell them I was taking time to decide what to do, and then after making them anxious, decide to be merciful, and hint that they were on thin ice. Of course, if they made the same mistake more than once, maybe twice, I'd probably be fairly unmerciful.

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