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  1. #191
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    This thread is insane. But in a good way.

    I think I once told Athenian I found Athenian's view of life to be almost evil. Not that it was wrong or right, but that it was so alien and threatening that the only way to protect oneself was through violence.

    To further illustrate how far apart we are:

    Sometimes I enter an ordered situation and purposefully create chaos. For fun.

  2. #192
    Senior Member ThatsWhatHeSaid's Avatar
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    Fineline, no offense, but I find it very ironic that you're criticized someone for weak Fe in the way that you did. I agree with Athenian that your tone is rather accusatory and judgmental. Mature Fe, I would think, would include knowing that accusation and judgmentalism will only make people defensive and thwart any attempt to help them.

  3. #193
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    Quote Originally Posted by MacGuffin View Post
    Sometimes I enter an ordered situation and purposefully create chaos. For fun.


    Not that an INFP would ever do the same...

  4. #194
    Protocol Droid Athenian200's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MacGuffin View Post
    This thread is insane. But in a good way.

    I think I once told Athenian I found Athenian's view of life to be almost evil. Not that it was wrong or right, but that it was so alien and threatening that the only way to protect oneself was through violence.
    Can you please tell me what seems to be wrong with it, in your opinion?

    My worldview wasn't one of the current reality, but of what I imagine things to be like without reasonable rules, which is why I try to preserve them.

    Here's that idea, one more time:

    Quote Originally Posted by athenian200
    Life without definite rules is a terrifying thing. You have to, single-handedly, ceaselessly outwit and outmaneuver everyone around you 24/7, while they cooperatively in rapidly changing alliances and rivalries, that you have to predict and play off of one another, use every trick they can think of against you in order to take everything they can from you to improve their own life unless you succeed each time. And the deck is always stacked against you because many of them are more experienced, have more intrinsic intelligence, more creativity, and have particular natural talents they can use. It's like living in a nightmarishly difficult, endless strategy game.
    So you can see why I would value rules, right? Of course, such a world might not be so terrifying for an xNTP (especially ENTP)...

    Sometimes I enter an ordered situation and purposefully create chaos. For fun.
    :horor: How could you?!

  5. #195
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    Quote Originally Posted by Athenian200 View Post
    FineLine, I didn't know you had served in the military. If I had known that, I would have been a lot more respectful.
    No problem. It was a long time ago. I don't raise the issue to curry respect; I mention it because it pegs me as an old dinosaur. I mention Vietnam, and people suddenly realize that I really do date back to another era and another world.

    Quote Originally Posted by Athenian200 View Post
    My main contention is with the idea that first way of processing (blunted and immature) is inherently regressive and wrong. The thing you seem not to be getting is that my inner world really is more important than my outer one. It is necessary for me to protect the ideas at times. Asking me to constantly force all information into it unfiltered is basically asking me to torture and violate myself on a regular basis.
    Okay, fair enough. You're young. You're still at the age where you implicitly trust the signals from your Dominant function and tend to experience input from your Auxiliary as painful or disconcerting. So it is perhaps age-appropriate for you to use your Auxiliary to screen out the world to protect your Dominant function from disconcerting ideas. It's probably wrong for me to label your use of your Auxiliary as "stunted."

    Eventually you will learn to use your Auxiliary in the way I described (and as described at the website). It's part of the natural progression as we age. And that, in turn, will resolve the problem you described in your OP.

    Basically, in my post I was just trying to describe how a change in your use of your Auxiliary will resolve the problem described in the OP. But if my tone came off as bullying or judgmental, I apologize. The changing use of your Auxiliary is part of a natural progression; it will happen by itself and in its own time.

    Of course, I'm looking at things from my point of view. I see things in a developmental progression, in which case I see one way of using the Auxiliary is "immature" or "stunted" whereas the other use is "mature." But at your age, a certain way of using the Auxiliary may simply be age-appropriate. Labeling these things correctly is important. As an INFP, I don't tend to pay as close attention to the labels as I should.

    Quote Originally Posted by Athenian200 View Post
    It would be rather like asking you to actually change your values (not just pretend) every time you interacted with someone who's values differed from yours, and I'm rather sure you wouldn't do that.
    For what it's worth, I do routinely pry open my Fi and question the values contained in there. Like I said in my original post, it's part of the natural progression of age to use my Auxiliary (and eventually even my Tertiary and Inferior functions) to serve as a "check" on my Dominant Fi and to keep my Dominant Fi under control and in touch with reality. At my age, my Fi tends to get stale and turn rancid if I don't give it a good airing on a regular basis.

  6. #196
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    Quote Originally Posted by ThatsWhatHeSaid View Post
    Mature Fe, I would think, would include knowing that accusation and judgmentalism will only make people defensive and thwart any attempt to help them.
    FWIW, I've never claimed to have good Fe. My Fe sucks. Fe is a shadow function for me; IRL, I really have to exert myself to remember to practice even basic social courtesies.

    My point was simply that better use of the Auxiliary function (as part of natural age progression) will solve the problem mentioned in the OP. In Athenian's case, the Auxiliary is Fe, so the discussion became about Fe by default.

    FWIW, I do agree that you were doing an excellent job of communicating with Athenian via some very skilled use of your own Inferior Fe (very impressive, by the way!). I also agree that I barged in and snatched defeat from the jaws of victory with an over-enthusiastic description of the functional process.

    As I said, my own Fe is practically non-existent, so I simply didn't pay attention to how I was labeling things or how I might be ruffling people's feathers by barging in.

  7. #197
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    Quote Originally Posted by MacGuffin View Post
    Sometimes I enter an ordered situation and purposefully create chaos. For fun.
    I don't do it on purpose. In my case, it just seems to happen naturally that I turn order into chaos on a pretty regular basis.

  8. #198
    Senior Member bluebell's Avatar
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    Athenian, I admit I've only skimmed the last few pages and not read carefully (other than the first bit, I mean). As far as I can tell, it's easier for you to think about others points of view if it's an explanation without it being forced on you? Like a question and answer thing. Not sure I'm explaining what I mean.

    Quote Originally Posted by Athenian200 View Post
    :horor: How could you?!
    An interesting mental exercise might be to try to see why that might be appealing to others - even if it might always be anathema to you (and it's ok if it's always anathema to you).
    Last edited by bluebell; 04-05-2008 at 02:45 AM. Reason: clarified
    ...so much smoke pouring out of each chromosome.

  9. #199
    Large Member Ender's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Athenian200 View Post
    FineLine, I didn't know you had served in the military. If I had known that, I would have been a lot more respectful.
    This is a good example of those invisible threads. Where upon finding out a new piece of information can change one's perspective on things.

    For example the Police officer not giving a ticket to someone for say speeding. One could argue that the officer was wrong for letting the person off without a ticket. However what if it was found out that the reason the Officer didn't issue a ticket was due to that person in a rush to get to a hospital because of something like a family member was just taken there in critical condition? Could one fault the officer for showing leniency in a situation like this?
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  10. #200
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    Quote Originally Posted by FineLine View Post
    Okay, fair enough. You're young. You're still at the age where you implicitly trust the signals from your Dominant function and tend to experience input from your Auxiliary as painful or disconcerting. So it is perhaps age-appropriate for you to use your Auxiliary to screen out the world to protect your Dominant function from disconcerting ideas. It's probably wrong for me to label your use of your Auxiliary as "stunted."
    You're not giving much ground here. This isn't validating. You're completely dismissing it as immaturity all over again, and taking away my right to choose my own path of development by saying "It will happen, you're just too young, so you just have to gain experience." Maybe I don't want it to happen that way? Maybe I want to take a different path than other people do? You're forcing your truth on me, and I don't like it one bit. I really don't agree with your idea that all people are somehow predestined to go through particular stages and feel particular things in fairly predictable ways, and they have no choice about what or how they do anything, and that there's little room for variation.

    I don't think that discussing an idea and explaining what I disagree with and why rather than accepting it without question is immature. Accepting things without trying to understand them is not my idea of intelligence. Of course, neither is rejecting things without trying to understand them (which I think is your concern).

    Here's what I think is happening. You see two extremes... one that doesn't let any information in at all because it screens too much, and another that accepts all information received. You consider the second one better, because it's closer to your approach as an xNxP. But what you don't realize is that it's different for J's, and we don't have the same kind of inner grounding regarding things. You don't seem to be aware that it is a reasonable approach to apply certain filters to information, in order to make sense of it and integrate it with what you already know in order to use it more effectively. Just because I choose not to place something into my way of dealing with things doesn't mean I don't recall or process it. It's just that I only acknowledge or use it in my judgments after I find more information that reconciles it with what I already know, or shows something I believed to be incomplete or false (which is something I usually seek out when confronted with such information, after having dismissed it for the moment). This doesn't involve discomfort. I don't appreciate your insistence that growing to a point where I unconditionally force the information in regardless of how it relates to what I've already perceived is the next step, hands down.

    The separate mental structure you seem not to be as aware of is the one that holds information that is not applied to judgment, because it's deemed too incomplete. You seem to think that if I had been aware of the information and not dismissed it, I would use it in my judgments regarding what you think the information ought to be used for. In reality, I'm dismissing it right now because it doesn't seem valid in context of what I know, but will reevaluate it later if I get more information about that perception. In fact, I periodically reevaluate information I haven't accepted all the time, I just refuse to use it in my judgments until I can somehow reconcile the contradictions that exist between it and what I already believe is true. I probably couldn't do otherwise, although I might pretend to if I were concerned that someone else would be a threat if I didn't.

    The thing you don't seem to get about my judgment is that it's always applied to past information. In other words, I'm applying my judgment to the information you've already given me, as I have processed it. Not to what information you will give me. The underlying assumption here is that it's obvious to everyone that I can't apply judgment to information I don't have, so that if you give me other information, or tell me to process it a different way, my judgment will be different. It's like this:

    (processes information) This is my judgment. (anticipates information intended to confirm or refute said judgment.)

    But you somehow miss the first and last parts because they are understated. Come to think of it, it's almost as if many P's think (or believe that I think) that I can apply judgment to information I don't have, and assume that's what I've done.

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