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  1. #11
    Senior Member alcea rosea's Avatar
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    Social pressure?
    Those words just popped from my brain 30 sec. ago.

  2. #12
    Protocol Droid Athenian200's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Metamorphosis View Post
    The easiest way for me to explain it is to compare it to the Criminal Justice system in the U.S.

    Our laws are generally concrete and well defined. This is your way of thinking. However, in reality, the court system takes cicrumstances into account. And this isn't even including the ridiculous amount of power in the form of police discretion.[/quote

    Is it illegal to speed? Yes.
    Do cops always pull over everyone who is speeding? No
    Do they always give a ticket to the ones they pull over? No

    You're missing the last two parts, from your description.
    But what I don't understand is the manner in which circumstances are taken into account, or even what circumstances are taken into account. I don't know where that comes from, or how it applies to me and other people.

    My interpretation of the last two statements is that cops don't enforce the law, and are failing to do their job.
    It's illegal to break into a house, but some cops will drive all the way there with their sirens on so that they end the crime but don't have to actually arrest the guy and go through the booking/court apperance process.
    My interpretation of that is that the cop is too lazy to do the right thing.

    Now that you see this, can you tell me what I don't get, and why I don't get it? I'm really curious now.

  3. #13
    ish red no longer *sad* nightning's Avatar
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    I don't think any of us makes decisions in the same way. We all wear tinted glasses of different colors. I definitely don't believe there's one right way of thinking about something or even in terms of looking at them. I think the only way to see the "invisible threads" of another person is by sitting down and actually spending time talking to that person. Try to put aside all your own biases and just listen.

    But that's not what you're asking about is it? How to be well received? Was that the actual question? You can't be guaranteed of that. (or at least I don't know how ) It might help if you change your perception of the interaction though. Take this forum for example... Instead of seeing that people are judging your character based on your posts... try to see it as people being interested about your posts... sometimes they agree with it, sometimes not. They took the take the time to write down a response though... which meant they want to discuss it with you.

    Your frame of mind affects your perception which in turn affect your behavior and other people's responses to it.

    Athenian. I always thought you wanted to keep forum decisions "logical" and thus adjusted my post style when interacting with you. I'll see if I can change that a little bit. Relax more! Nobody is judging you... only playing with ideas.

  4. #14
    Highly Hollow Wandering's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Athenian200 View Post
    there are also people (especially here) who make decisions based on something I can't even see.
    In typological terms, that "something you can't even see" would be all those functions you happen not to be very proficient in, I think. We're all in the same case: blind to a lesser or greater extent to our non-dominant functions. We may and often do understand them to a reasonable degree, but we don't understand what it means to have them as a dominant/primary function.

    It seems to be something like this. I assess each action independently against a set of rules I've developed or that have been handed to me,
    Sounds like Ti and/or Te.

    as well as against all the consequences that I'm aware could exist for that action.
    Ni.

    So when I act, that's what I take into account.
    And that's only 2, maybe 3 functions - out of 8. See what the problem is?

    But many of the rest of you think in a way that I can't even relate to.


    You seem to see something that I can't see, by which a person's collective actions and your perception of their nature modify the consequences of an individual action. It's as if you see some kind of invisible "thread" linking all these actions together in a particular way, and from it you calculate what a person's intent is, whether their action is good or bad, what effect it had, and what is justified regarding the collective nature of all of that information I don't even see or process.
    You have the same kind of invisible threads guiding your actions. It's just that you use *different* threads.

    I've been participating on another MBTI forum for a year and a half, one primarily populated by INFPs. I have *repeatedly* found myself tangled up in those "invisible threads". I am slowly building an intellectual understanding of them, but they remain as invisible as ever to me.

    The problem is, I don't even see that "thread." So this is very frightening to me because I feel like things are being judged by something that I can't even comprehend. And if I can't comprehend what I am being judged by, how can I hope to avoid negative consequences for my actions? How can I even know if I'm doing something wrong?
    Exactly. I've been almost single-handedly responsible for the madmins of that other forum having to write down in their rulebook a whole list of forbidden behaviours that they had never thought before might need to be written down. To them, they were obvious. To me, they are either baffling and/or utterly invisible.

    Do I just have to hope other people will tell me before I make them too angry, and then try to follow their prescriptions without even understanding them? That seems to be the only way to live... just try to avoid doing anything that might irritate someone, never trust them if there's even the slightest chance they could use it against you, and hope you remember all of their preferences so that you don't say anything that makes them mad. I won't enjoy living that way all of the time (although it would be fine for a while), but I don't really see an alternative.
    From my own experience on that other forum, I'd say there is NO fully-working alternative. At best, you can come to intellectually understand what principles rule them, how they think, but it will never be natural/obvious/"logical" to you. This understanding will still make it easier for you to deal with them on an equal basis, though, and it will mind-blowingly expand your understanding of the human race in general, so it's totally worth working on it.

    So basically, I want to know if someone can explain how you draw these threads between actions, and if there's a consistent pattern by which I can predict which threads are likely to be drawn between actions. Or is it something you just have to "get," and you're out of luck if you don't get it?
    Both. One suggestion I would make to *you* (because you're very high on T and Ni), from a typological standpoint, is to study the various functions and how they theoretically influence a type depending on their "position" in that type's "hierarchy". I especially suggest focusing on Ne first, and on Ti/Fi (you have a lot of Ti, but not as Dom/Aux, and that makes a significant difference with the TPs out there), and of course on how they interact.

  5. #15
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Lawful Neutral, through and through.

    Quote Originally Posted by Athenian200 View Post
    But what I don't understand is the manner in which circumstances are taken into account, or even what circumstances are taken into account. I don't know where that comes from, or how it applies to me and other people. My interpretation of the last two statements is that cops don't enforce the law, and are failing to do their job.
    I think, basically, the cops are looking at the law as a standard meant simply to keep the peace. I.e., the reason behind it, not the laws themselves.

    To keep the peace, you don't have to enforce EVERY aspect of every law and punish all the time. They're just there to keep things generally on course, prevent gross violations, etc.

    There are probably a number of factors involved -- the one I just described, plus the impractical nature of trying to enforce everything perfectly (due to staffing problems or people simply getting away with things), plus perhaps at times mistakes by the cops or even negligence, and on occasion purposeful bending of the rules. But overall, I think it's more the first, plus some of the second.

    My interpretation of that is that the cop is too lazy to do the right thing.
    I think it's more that the nature of a human system is (as the first point suggested) you don't have to stringent enforce each and every rule perfectly for it to still do its basic job.

    And the nature of the human system is that if you make the system too rigid, human beings will actually behave worse than they would if the system is somewhat flexible.

    Think for a moment about us trying to police this forum so that no one ever gets away with saying anything that could be misconstrued as "bad" about someone else. Do you have an idea of how impossible a task that is?

    The best we can do is derail/punish gross and persistent violations, try to set a positive tone, and otherwise encourage members to have a positive attitude when they interact.

    As I mentioned in the other thread, parenthood's the same way. It's hard. Very hard. You have to have rules, but you constantly have to learn how to flex and bend the rules to accommodate where the kids are at so that they're encouraged, long-term, to become the sort of people you created the rules to help them be in the first place. This is why parents sometimes agonize over what specifically to do, that has the best long-term results.

    (Note: I'm not saying that you're kids at all, I'm just saying that human beings in general can't operate without flex. Laws have to be applied.)

    ...I'm still thinking about the OP thing....
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  6. #16
    Senior Member alcea rosea's Avatar
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    Nobody here takes my comments seriousy

    Doesn't social pressure play it's part in all social interaction even online? So let's say person A is well liked and breaks rules. Person B is not well liked and breaks the same rules. -> B gets more severe punishment than A because B is less liked. People demand less punishment for nice people. What you say of this?

  7. #17
    Member skip's Avatar
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    Everyone has those threads and everyone understands them to different extents. The key is to use your own instead of relying on other peoples' because if you try to rely on others' threads, they vary too much and the inconsistency is frustrating and bewildering. Relying on your own threads comes from maturity, knowing yourself, and experience. That takes time. Having an objective, rather than subjective, value system will help considerably to get you through the learning curve.

  8. #18
    Large Member Ender's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Athenian200 View Post
    But what I don't understand is the manner in which circumstances are taken into account, or even what circumstances are taken into account. I don't know where that comes from, or how it applies to me and other people.

    My interpretation of the last two statements is that cops don't enforce the law, and are failing to do their job.
    You're thinking is linear in that when you're viewing a situation you see black and white basically. You don't see how any exception to the rule should be permissible. Wheres others view rules as more or less guidelines.

    In a way it reminds me of the question as to whether or not someone should have their hand cut off for stealing a loaf of bread to feed their starving family. Linear thinking is more who cares about why they did it, they stole thats all that matters, off with the hand.
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  9. #19
    The Destroyer Colors's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Athenian
    But what I don't understand is the manner in which circumstances are taken into account, or even what circumstances are taken into account. I don't know where that comes from, or how it applies to me and other people.

    My interpretation of the last two statements is that cops don't enforce the law, and are failing to do their job.
    That's why they have jury trials! Because they don't have laws laying out the exact punishments for the exact circumstances of each case that will come up. And why would they want to? Such rigidity wouldn't serve the best interests of society (basically what Jennifer said). In a sense, each person on a jury brings their own interpretation of the case- and we hope to reach some sort of general consensus or middle ground to apply as the judgement.

    Over time and using common sense, I think you can generally form an idea what what sort of circumstances apply. (Example: You hear person X killed person Y. The natural circumstances you want to know about include: What is self-defense? Did person X do it on purpose? Do we have reason to believe person X will kill someone else? etc.)

  10. #20
    Highly Hollow Wandering's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alcea Rosea View Post
    Nobody here takes my comments seriousy
    I did, but I wasn't sure what you meant

    Doesn't social pressure play it's part in all social interaction even online? So let's say person A is well liked and breaks rules. Person B is not well liked and breaks the same rules. -> B gets more severe punishment than A because B is less liked. People demand less punishment for nice people. What you say of this?
    I say it gets even more complicated than that, because "popularity" and "being well-liked" are not universal things. What will make you well-liked in one setting might make you not liked at all in another.

    Also, "popularity" depends on, well, *people* expressing their likings and dislikings. But not everyone expresses such opinions as loudly as everyone else. So some people might be very popular with a small but vocal group, while some others might be quite popular with a larger but more silent group, and it's not clear who will appear to be most popular to the general population.

    That's especially important where sanctions are concerned, and people voice their opinions about them...

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