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  1. #181
    heart on fire
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    Quote Originally Posted by FineLine View Post
    No, I see Athenian's response as dismissal: She says, "I refuse to even consider your point. It's garbage."

    By contrast, an INFP rejection is more like the disagreement Heart and I are having about taking a principled stand. We're maneuvering a bit and testing. If we decide we want to go at it, we'll remain congenial for a while but then we'll finally break out the long knives and really start carving each other up.

    It was late, I probably didn't have the best comprehension at that hour. I think I probably misunderstood what you were saying...

  2. #182
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    Quote Originally Posted by Athenian200 View Post
    It's a bit like this. It's like opening up the door, and meeting a salesman who shoves a product in my face and tersely says, "Buy this." This sort of bugs me and I say, "Why should I?" Instead of trying to sell it to me, they just say "Because it's the best, it's all you need. Now buy it, or I'll just beat you up and take the money anyway."
    Well I did graduate at the top of my class from the Dirty Harry School of Salesmanship.

    Go ahead, punk, make my day sales quota!

  3. #183
    Emerging Tallulah's Avatar
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    Going back and rereading, I can see what Athenian is talking about--if you're already feeling defensive, it would be tough to read a lot of "you need to" advice, no matter how insightful or accurate. I can see where it would just feel like "you're wrong, and you should be more like this."

    I know for me personally, if I'm stuck in a Ti loop, I'll finally realize that I NEED others to help me see what I can't. When I reach that point, I'd want someone like FineLine to come in and help me pinpoint what I can't see. I would need someone to say, "Hey, you're doing x, and here's the reason why you're likely doing x. It's stunting your growth, and making you spin in circles. Try y instead."

    Though Ath has reached out, she probably got more than she originally bargained for. (I think it's been a really fascinating discussion, though, and I'm learning a lot.) I imagine it's kind of being hungry for a bowl of soup, and being given a 6-course meal and told it's what you wanted in the first place.

  4. #184
    ish red no longer *sad* nightning's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Athenian200 View Post
    The strange thing is, I often even perceive someone like, say, BlueWing as being the second salesman rather than the first one.
    How is BW like the 2nd salesman to you? I'm curious...

    This is my (bias) view.

    *knocks on door*
    "Hello my name is _____ I'm here to demonstrate to you why ______ is superior to anything you have currently and that you should buy it (my idea).
    ...
    *5 minutes later*

    "Uh but I already have something like this. Well not exactly the same product, but it does the same job."

    "No! That's nothing like this! Here are the differences..."
    ...
    *10 minutes later*

    "Ummmm yes they don't operate in the exact same way, but mine does the job just as well in a different way... plus it can also do this... which yours can't. I don't see why I should buy another one."

    "You're not looking at it correctly. They are different. Mine is superior because of this..."
    ... (recap of the same stuff)
    *10 minutes later*

    "Really, thanks but no I don't need it. Thanks for your time though..."
    *slams door shut*

    I see it as starting out as 2nd salesman and turning into 1st salesman within 5 minutes of discussion.

  5. #185
    Large Member Ender's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nightning View Post
    How is BW like the 2nd salesman to you? I'm curious...

    This is my (bias) view.
    I see it somewhat the same way. Only in my imaginative mind it's Ben Stein at the door trying to sell it.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
    Fe/Fi 36.9/37.7
    Ne/Ni 34.9/25.8
    Se/Si 25.7/19.5
    Te/Ti 28.4/31.9
    Type: 2w% sx/sp/so

    I don't want it, I just need it, to breathe, to feel, to know I'm alive.

    Never take life to seriously.. No one gets out alive in the end anyway.

  6. #186
    mrs disregard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nightning
    How is BW like the 2nd salesman to you?
    Be careful what you ask for. Do you really want to see more BW ass-kissing?

  7. #187
    Highly Hollow Wandering's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dana View Post
    Be careful what you ask for. Do you really want to see more BW ass-kissing?
    I kinda do. Because as I put it earlier in the thread: "I don't understand how anyone on Earth could think that way, so can you take me through your reasoning step by step, please?" Stupid INFJness.

    ***

    Quote Originally Posted by Nadir View Post
    Stealthy edit after Wandering posted: Yay, my hunch was right!
    I'd noticed. You almost made me cry, you big meanie!

  8. #188
    Protocol Droid Athenian200's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nightning View Post
    How is BW like the 2nd salesman to you? I'm curious...
    Well, yes he seems confident... even arrogant. But there's this implicit tone that he's still trying to get you to buy it of your own will rather than threatening you if you don't accept it. The sense is still that it's your loss, not his, if you don't accept what he's saying.

    It's like there's a basic respect for people choosing to believe/act as they will, as long they're willing to accept the consequences. There's no feeling of demanding me to accept something that I don't understand. In fact, I think he might be mildly bothered if I did. The demand is only that I try to understand it, and he usually tries to explain it as many ways and in as much detail as I need.

    Although he can be very long-winded, technical, and argumentative. He is capable of thinking very precisely for an INTP (most are a bit more vague, but still intelligent), although he's a bit less open. My guess is he just has slightly more Si/Ti and less Ne than normal.

    To me, it usually seems like he has a point, and is good at understanding your point if you explain it very carefully and elaborate as much as he asks. It's actually kind of interesting to talk to someone like that at times. It can help you become more aware of exactly what something means. It's kind of like taking a Philosophy class.

  9. #189
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    Athenian,

    You've been pretty negative about the tone I used in delivering my earlier message, and I don't begrudge you that. Part of the problem may be a generational thing. I really am pretty old-school. I don't mind getting up in people's faces and telling them what I think of them, and I appreciate it when people do the same to me.

    As I said earlier, the tone of my messages didn't go over well at INFP-GC either. I'm an old ex-Marine from the Vietnam era, and my tone was too direct for many of the younger INFPs over at INFP-GC as well. I expect they thought I was talking down to them, whereas I just thought I was being direct and treating them as equals.

    I actually get along with NTs better. They're not so sensitive to style, and they have an ethic to the effect that they don't mind conflict as long as it teaches them something new. So I take advantage of that to get in their faces at times, and they seem to handle it okay.

    Anyway, we've all dissected the delivery of my message pretty thoroughly at this point. But what about the content--either of my message or of the website that I linked? After all, the delivery is just a tangent. It's the message that matters, and I was in fact trying to address honestly the questions that you raised. Was the content of my message (or the linked website) applicable to your situation?

    If you want to respond that my delivery was so toxic that it poisoned the content for you as well, I'll respect that and drop out of the thread. As I said previously, I'm not trying to bully you into anything. It's your life.

  10. #190
    Protocol Droid Athenian200's Avatar
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    FineLine, I didn't know you had served in the military. If I had known that, I would have been a lot more respectful.

    I've never really considered myself sensitive to style either. I usually get along fairly well with NT's, but perhaps that's because even when they're being shocking or cruel, they still put out a "neutral" vibe. I wouldn't forgive myself if I rejected your contribution solely based on it's style.

    My main contention is with the idea that first way of processing (blunted and immature) is inherently regressive and wrong. The thing you seem not to be getting is that my inner world really is more important than my outer one. It is necessary for me to protect the ideas at times. Asking me to constantly force all information into it unfiltered is basically asking me to torture and violate myself on a regular basis. It would be rather like asking you to actually change your values (not just pretend) every time you interacted with someone who's values differed from yours, and I'm rather sure you wouldn't do that.

    You also don't seem to realize that forcing the information is not the only way to accept it, and is actually the most destructive way of inserting it. I can assimilate new information very comfortably if I'm allowed to examine it and ask for clarification about what it is and what it means. An NT probably wouldn't have reacted that way to your tone, because they would have taken the liberty of examining it based on their own sense that they have a right to do so, regardless of whether you wanted them to or not. I actually feel like the person I'm talking to can take my right to do that away if I let them, which is why I get so defensive if I become worried that they're trying to do that.

    I'm actually saying that if I forced information into my system constantly, my inner world would be nothing but a disconnected series of facts and impressions, that I couldn't make any inferences from at all. I do indeed take in all information I'm exposed to in a certain way, but I only use information I've accepted in a particular way in making choices. The only way the information can be useful to me is if it doesn't violate/contradict what I already know, or that if it does, it's shown to be due to incomplete understanding rather than "just being so."

    Does that make sense?

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