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  1. #171
    will make your day Carebear's Avatar
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    Also, the INFPs you talk about Wandering seem to be using stunted Ne. (Thanks for the terms and ideas, FL. Really an eye opener once again.) By intuiting that a line of thought might at some point in the future threaten Fi, they use the stunted Ne to immediately tell Fi that the possible future slight has already happened. Mature Ne would instead try to get to the bottom of what the other person seems to be expressing in order to let Fi get new understanding and challenge it to mature and grow.

    Edit: Bah, I suddenly remembered FL had already covered this as well I think.
    I have arms for a fucking reaosn, so come hold me. Then we'll fuvk! Whoooooh! - GZA

  2. #172
    Mamma said knock you out Mempy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FineLine View Post
    The U.S. crowd on the East Coast should be waking up soon. I'll let you guys take it up with them.
    Or maybe they never actually went to bed.

    But don't take it up with me; I'm tired and have a long-ish day ahead of me! *rubs face*

    Good insight, FL, again. When Wandering disagreed, I was going to suggest that it may not be a difference between INFPs and INFJs, but rather a difference between mature and immature people of both types. I do notice that many INFPs and INFJs alike can point-blank disagree and immediately get aggressive in discussions, turning them into conflicts with resentful feelings. They're the ones not objectively evaluating the situation, not taking in or respecting the other person's opinion, and simply trying to drive a point home, i.e. immature arguers. You took it one step further by realizing that, uh (here's where my tiredness kicks in), both types might see each other's opposition while the person is still thinking they're showing an open-minded disposition. Good insight! I think that's a great and likely guess.

    Also, I just wanted to use this smiley:
    They're running just like you
    For you, and I, wooo
    So people, people, need some good ol' love

  3. #173
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wandering View Post
    Very good points! I totally see that happening all the time, now that you mention it.
    Good! An INFJ and an INFP in agreement!

    By the way, Wandering, you're acting as an honest broker between Athenian and me. More specifically:

    I saw Athenian being dismissive toward my contribution, which is fine. She has to live her own life, and I'm not looking to tell her how to do it. Edahn had already given her the Fe treatment; I was just Ne-ing the issue for the fun of it.

    But then you interpreted some of what I said into Fe for Athenian, which told me that you're hearing me. When you raised some of your own objections to my post concerning Fe vs Fi, I put my Ne to work to hear you in return and incorporate your concerns (as opposed to using my Ne merely to fence with you or ignore your concerns).

    IOW, it hadn't occurred to me previously that INFJs might see INFPs as being that quick to go into opposition. But seeing that you understood what I said to Athenian, I trusted your opinion of INFPs in turn.

    I think this gets back to the OP and the subject of "Invisible threads that change how actions are judged." If no one listens and no one trusts what the others are saying, then we all just end up talking past each other. But if one or two people can step outside their natural framework and listen to what others are saying, a little loop of trust gets generated. We can suddenly hear each others' concerns, trust them to be real, and try to find a compromise vision that will at least attempt to incorporate everyone's concerns.

    An honest broker can accomplish a lot. That's where the "invisible threads" from the OP get created. But the threads will remain invisible to individuals who insist only on their own views. The threads only become visible when each person trusts and incorporates the views of others.

    Quote Originally Posted by Carebear View Post
    Also, the INFPs you talk about Wandering seem to be using stunted Ne. (Thanks for the terms and ideas, FL. Really an eye opener once again.) By intuiting that a line of thought might at some point in the future threaten Fi, they use the stunted Ne to immediately tell Fi that the possible future slight has already happened. Mature Ne would instead try to get to the bottom of what the other person seems to be expressing in order to let Fi get new understanding and challenge it to mature and grow.
    Yes, that describes it well. Immature use of the Auxiliary is often about projecting motives and fears onto others. Mature use is about holding off on judgment and simply trying to hear what was said without worrying about motives or agendas.

    If an "honest broker" appears in a conversation and uses their functions maturely, it becomes that much easier for others to do the same.

    Quote Originally Posted by Carebear View Post
    Edit: Bah, I suddenly remembered FL had already covered this as well I think.
    Not necessarily. I don't know anymore. :zzz:

  4. #174
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mempy View Post
    Or maybe they never actually went to bed.

    But don't take it up with me; I'm tired and have a long-ish day ahead of me! *rubs face*

    Good insight, FL, again. When Wandering disagreed, I was going to suggest that it may not be a difference between INFPs and INFJs, but rather a difference between mature and immature people of both types. I do notice that many INFPs and INFJs alike can point-blank disagree and immediately get aggressive in discussions, turning them into conflicts with resentful feelings. But you took it one step further by realizing that, uh (here's where my tiredness kicks in), both types might see each other's opposition while the person is still thinking they're showing an open-minded disposition, especially when the people concerned are more mature and more well-versed in disagreement. Good insight! I think that's a great and likely guess.

    Also, I just wanted to use this smiley:
    Thanks, Mempy. But as I said in the previous post, Wandering gets a lot of the credit too. Initially I was just Ne-ing without too much concern for Athenian's feelings, and Athenian wasn't too happy with that. It was Wandering's intervention that turned things in a positive direction and kicked off a more positive discussion. (Credit to Edahn, too, who was making good headway before I jumped in.)

    Good luck with your day!

  5. #175
    Mamma said knock you out Mempy's Avatar
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    Thank you! And I agree, many voices contributed to make this a positive discussion, including Edahn, Wandering, and Carebear.

    (Off to school! Bye! )
    They're running just like you
    For you, and I, wooo
    So people, people, need some good ol' love

  6. #176
    Highly Hollow Wandering's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FineLine View Post
    Good! An INFJ and an INFP in agreement!
    Meh

    By the way, Wandering, you're acting as an honest broker between Athenian and me.
    From what I understand of what you mean by "honest broker", I'd say I'm typically acting my type INFJs thrive on helping people reach mutual understanding.

    IOW, it hadn't occurred to me previously that INFJs might see INFPs as being that quick to go into opposition. But seeing that you understood what I said to Athenian, I trusted your opinion of INFPs in turn.
    Don't trust it too much... I don't

    I think this gets back to the OP and the subject of "Invisible threads that change how actions are judged." If no one listens and no one trusts what the others are saying, then we all just end up talking past each other.
    It can get even worse than that. Sometimes people are listening and people are trusting, but because they speak such different languages and come from such different places, it still doesn't work. That's the main source of attraction in typology for me: understanding how people can be genuinely different one from the other, how they can honestly be acting and thinking in different ways, how, in short, different doesn't have to be wrong.

  7. #177
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FineLine View Post
    The U.S. crowd on the East Coast should be waking up soon. I'll let you guys take it up with them.
    I don't really have anything more to contribute, I'm just enjoying reading everyone's ideas. Some very insightful comments about Fi/Fe differences and comparisons between INFP/INFJ types... as well as exploration of what happens when people give more credence to their secondary rather than their primary.

    So thank you all for that, the five stars I gave this thread yesterday were definitely accurate.

    And I'm also figuring everyone needs some time to digest the ideas they've heard.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  8. #178
    Protocol Droid Athenian200's Avatar
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    If you're interested, here's how I perceived FineLine's first statement (and many other INFP's):

    "What I'm saying is the only right way. If you disagree with me, I'll force you to agree with me. What you feel doesn't matter, because my opinion is the only truth, and thus I can force you."

    It's a bit like this. It's like opening up the door, and meeting a salesman who shoves a product in my face and tersely says, "Buy this." This sort of bugs me and I say, "Why should I?" Instead of trying to sell it to me, they just say "Because it's the best, it's all you need. Now buy it, or I'll just beat you up and take the money anyway."

    Needless to say, this leaves me feeling defensive.

    I don't really understand why I perceive it this way.

    In contrast, here's how I often perceive xNTP's when discussing an idea (if it doesn't touch on anything intense or something):

    "I'm not 100% sure that I'm right, but I'd like you to consider that I might be. It seems like a positive thing to me, although you may not agree. In fact, you're welcome to tell me exactly what you think of this and explain why you think it."

    In this situation, it's a bit different. I open the door to a salesman who says, "Hello, there. I sell <name of product>. Can I interest you in buying it?" Curious, I ask, "What does it do?" They respond, "Why, what does it do? What doesn't it do is the better question. But here, let me give you a demonstration. May I come in?" Then I invite them in, and they look around my house for something that their product can help with. They point something out and say, "Look at this <thing>, it doesn't work well at all. But watch how much better it works when I apply <name of product> to the same situation." Then they give a demonstration, and I'm impressed. And then I say, "Very impressive, but I've seen very similar products in stores. Why should I buy this from you?" They respond, "Ah, skepticism. You are indeed a shrewd buyer. They are quite similar, although mine is better because of <unique quality>. Tell you what, I normally sell this for <price>, but for a shrewd buyer like you, I'll sell it for <half price>. What do you think? I know several people who would pay almost any price for such a useful product. Do you really want to pass this up?" Needless to say, I buy the product.

    The strange thing is, I often even perceive someone like, say, BlueWing as being the second salesman rather than the first one.

  9. #179
    Enigma Nadir's Avatar
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    Before someone jumps in with a typology-based response which will probably have no use whatsoever, (sorry, but I'm right.) let me just say that the above response by athenian really dovetails with my opinion of the MBTI being a fairly useless tool that has the potential to generate more predisposition than it can get rid of, courtesy of its seperatist tendencies. We should all strive to get rid of its self-limiting influence and burn all the MBTI books we might potentially have. Like I've said, I'm right.

    Thanks!

    PS: Humor.

    Stealthy edit after Wandering posted: Yay, my hunch was right!
    Last edited by Nadir; 04-04-2008 at 01:04 PM. Reason: More reason for scathing negative reps given to make the repper feel better. Yes, you.
    Not really.

  10. #180
    Highly Hollow Wandering's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Athenian200 View Post
    If you're interested, here's how I perceived FineLine's first statement (and many other INFP's):

    In contrast, here's how I often perceive xNTP's when discussing an idea (if it doesn't touch on anything intense or something):
    Very interesting, considering that NTPs and NFPs have the same main Extraverted function (Ne). So it sounds like you are reacting to the Introverted functions (Fi vs Ti), and you find Ti less "forceful" than Fi. That's understandable, since Ti is an "impersonal" function, while Fi is very "personal". And of course Ti is among an INFJ's primary functions, while Fi is a Shadow one. So it's all kind of logical in a way.

    The strange thing is, I often even perceive someone like, say, BlueWing as being the second salesman rather than the first one.
    Now, *this* I truly don't understand

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