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  1. #161
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wandering View Post
    Speaking of Athenian right now: don't you think it's much more a case of the latter than the former? Just look at the "rejection post" above: it's got "ferocious" and "I reject this because it affects values tied to my self-definition" written all over it, don't you think?
    No, I see Athenian's response as dismissal: She says, "I refuse to even consider your point. It's garbage."

    By contrast, an INFP rejection is more like the disagreement Heart and I are having about taking a principled stand. We're maneuvering a bit and testing. If we decide we want to go at it, we'll remain congenial for a while but then we'll finally break out the long knives and really start carving each other up.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wandering View Post
    Yup. And in Athenian's case, it sounds far more INFPish than INFJish to my ears. Saying stuff like "I hate you and your values", that's typically angry INFP, from what I've experienced.
    INFPs will be congenial for 5 or 10 posts, maneuvering with you and congenially trying to convince you of their point of view. Then they finally get disgusted and start screaming at you. Whereas Athenian will get up in your face and dismiss you right at the start, and just keep questioning the issue for 50 posts and refuse to drop it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Athenian200 View Post
    Actually, there seems to be a "vibe" about INFP's that makes me feel like they're forcing their ideas on me, and not allowing me to question or disagree. This usually inflames me, although later I find that wasn't actually their intent. I just don't enjoy communicating with them, it always leaves me agitated and confused.
    I agree. There seems to be a communication issue between INFPs and INFJs. I really haven't sat down and parsed it, so I can't say what it is exactly.

    But FWIW, INFPs at INFP-GC complained about my communication style as well. I'm a bit more "in your face" than most INFPs, I believe.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mempy View Post
    Exactly! Sweet blessed relief!

    Sorry you're not receiving /quite/ as much support as I think you deserve, but I really think it was an awesome post, and your subsequent posts do well to further explain your excellently thought out and excellently illustrated point.

    It must take work to write such a long post, but you do it so frequently that perhaps you're practiced. Perhaps you try hard to be concise, but I think you did a good job for the points you were making.
    Thanks! Actually, what happens is that I try *not* to write that long post. I try to stay out of the thread for a full day or more, figuring it's none of my business and I don't have the time to get involved; but meantime I'm watching the thread and writing the post in the back of my mind just to see how I would incorporate what's been said.

    Finally I can't take it any more and I sit down and write it. But by then it's fully formed in my mind and I can just vomit it out on the page.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mempy View Post
    (Two hours and counting down. )
    I think I'm just going to call in sick. I feel like a 3-day weekend!
    Last edited by MacGuffin; 04-05-2008 at 12:43 AM. Reason: merged posts

  2. #162
    Highly Hollow Wandering's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Athenian200 View Post
    I didn't mean to give that impression. I thought he was telling me I had to accept ideas without examining them, and even when they are inconsistent, arbitrary, and contradictory in order to be mature, and I don't agree.
    I see.

    As an INFJ, there is no way you could accept ideas without examining them. Any new idea is going to be pulled apart by our Fe and Ti (at least) before being (eventually) digested by Ni. So no, you are definitely not asked to accept ideas without examining them.

    However, you *are* being encouraged to not dismiss ideas that don't seem to make sense too quickly. As I said in a previous post, DomNi isn't afraid of chaos and contradictions. But AuxFe, TerTi, and Shadow Fi can be, and often are. However, they are supposed to remain *subordinate* to DomNi.

    IOW: the drive to keep things clean and neat in your internal library of ideas is not a typical INFJ drive. Typically, INFJs don't have any problem with holding conflicting ideas at the same time, in fact we often thrive on it. We like to organise any incoming data, sure, but once this is done, we typically enjoy having columns upon columns of conflicting data, and trying to make it all work together somehow.

    But I'm still not completely sure I actually understand how you process conflicting ideas, so I might be completely off on that one.

    I also felt like he was saying that I had no right to disagree or do things differently because that was the right way, and was forcing the idea on me against my will.
    He was just presenting the currently most widely accepted view on INFJ functioning. That doesn't in any way mean you have to accept it. In fact, it would be troubling if you accepted it without any resistance.

    My attitude is that I can listen to an idea if it's offered to me, explain what parts I agree or disagree with, and they turn around and see what they agree/disagree with, etc.
    Just making sure: is there a part in there where you go "I don't understand why on Earth anyone would be thinking that way, so please guide me through your reasoning step by step"?

    I have accepted new ideas, realized things I didn't see before, and changed my opinions on things with little pain in this manner, without feeling like I'm violating myself.
    I don't know what to say, because the idea that one would be violating themselves by accepting other people's ideas is rather foreign to me.

    I didn't feel like FineLine was giving me that option. It felt different with Edahn for some reason, though. And you just now, come to think of it.
    Strange. I'm usually the one being told that I'm not leaving people any options, and INFPs are usually the ones making sure that people don't feel pressured. I wonder what's at work here.

  3. #163
    Mamma said knock you out Mempy's Avatar
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    By contrast, an INFP rejection is more like the disagreement Heart and I are having about taking a principled stand. We're maneuvering a bit and testing. If we decide we want to go at it, we'll remain congenial for a while but then we'll finally break out the long knives and really start carving each other up.
    But by then it's fully formed in my mind and I can just vomit it out on the page.
    Oh, the stitch, the stich!

    By the way, I do agree that that is often the difference between INFPs and INFJs in disagreements. Love the humor.

    Actually, what happens is that I try *not* to write that long post.
    I had a feeling that's what you tried.

    I think I'm just going to call in sick. I feel like a 3-day weekend!
    I have no such luxury. First week of classes and I've ALREADY missed the first day, which puts me behind a little. Oh well! I'll console myself with the thought that you're sleeping in and eating breakfast at two pm.
    They're running just like you
    For you, and I, wooo
    So people, people, need some good ol' love

  4. #164
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mempy View Post
    I had a feeling that's what you tried.
    A lot of those posts never get written. But my wife's out of town this weekend, which leaves me some free time. Most of my posting occurs when my wife is traveling, which is why I'm active at some times and not at others.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mempy View Post
    I have no such luxury. First week of classes and I've ALREADY missed the first day, which puts me behind a little. Oh well! I'll console myself with the thought that you're sleeping in and eating breakfast at two pm.
    Sorry to hear it! Hope your day isn't too miserable.

    [Off to bed.]

  5. #165
    Highly Hollow Wandering's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FineLine View Post
    No, I see Athenian's response as dismissal: She says, "I refuse to even consider your point. It's garbage."
    Which to me is associated with INFPs An INFJ would either:
    1- disengage from the conversation and/or keep their opinion to themselves,
    2- wait and listen,
    3- actively ask "I don't understand, can you explain again",
    4- at the very worst, get mad and argue at lengths that the position is somehow morally offensive.

    Going straight in your face and saying "that's garbage" is something that I typically see INFPs, not INFJs, doing.

    Though of course, I suppose number 4 could be seen that way...

    By contrast, an INFP rejection is more like the disagreement Heart and I are having about taking a principled stand. We're maneuvering a bit and testing. If we decide we want to go at it, we'll remain congenial for a while but then we'll finally break out the long knives and really start carving each other up.
    Not really my experience, I must say. I've rarely seen people more ready to pick up the carving knives at the first hint of an offense as INFPs can be. You'd have to piss an INFJ off very badly to get them to react that strongly and that fast.

    Note: I'm only talking of online discussions. Things would look much different in real life. Maybe that's why we disagree? Are you talking of real life interactions while I'm more focusing on online interactions? If so... I feel stoopid

    INFPs will be congenial for 5 or 10 posts, maneuvering with you and congenially trying to convince you of their point of view.
    Er, no, that's INFJs I've often been bombed by INFPs after writing just a single post that they saw as somehow wrong. INFJs are far more likely to ask "what did you mean exactly?" while INFPs will often just come out and say "you meant that and I find it disgusting".

    Whereas Athenian will get up in your face and dismiss you right at the start, and just keep questioning the issue for 50 posts and refuse to drop it.
    The perseverance is typically INFJ, I'll grant you that

  6. #166
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    What's with all this talk of people going to bed ?? It's lunch time here !!

  7. #167
    Enigma Nadir's Avatar
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    Ya rly Wandering! I'm having exactly that, lol.
    Not really.

  8. #168
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wandering View Post
    Which to me is associated with INFPs An INFJ would either:
    1- disengage from the conversation and/or keep their opinion to themselves,
    2- wait and listen,
    3- actively ask "I don't understand, can you explain again",
    4- at the very worst, get mad and argue at lengths that the position is somehow morally offensive.

    Going straight in your face and saying "that's garbage" is something that I typically see INFPs, not INFJs, doing.

    Though of course, I suppose number 4 could be seen that way...


    Not really my experience, I must say. I've rarely seen people more ready to pick up the carving knives at the first hint of an offense as INFPs can be. You'd have to piss an INFJ off very badly to get them to react that strongly and that fast.

    Note: I'm only talking of online discussions. Things would look much different in real life. Maybe that's why we disagree? Are you talking of real life interactions while I'm more focusing on online interactions? If so... I feel stoopid
    Hmmm... The online experience is tricky. You've been posting on INFP-GC where there are a lot of young INFPs who lose it pretty quick. And I've been speaking specifically of Athenian, who is young and expresses opposition right at the first post (albeit in pretty much a rational tone).

    In real life among my older acquaintances, I agree. Both types will take their time before getting overly ferocious on the issues.

    It's probably a question of perception. For example, INFPs express themselves via Ne and will think of themselves as staying open-minded on an issue and playing with it for a while before getting rigid about it. But INFJs may register the INFP's Fi opposition in hiding (I think INFJs are good at sensing a hidden agenda) and sense opposition before the INFP intends to actually express opposition.

    Likewise, INFJs express themselves via Fe and will think of themselves as staying open-minded on an issue out of politeness and playing with it for a while before pushing hard on it. But as an INFP, I tend to be kind of dismissive of Fe; I see it as the judging function that it is (because I see my own Fi as a rigid function); so I ignore the politeness aspect and see it as opposition practically from the start--especially in retrospect, once the INFJ keeps pushing the issue.

    IOW, both parties may think they're projecting an open-minded stance, but they're being read by the other party as taking a rigid stance practically from the start. Hence Athenian's defensiveness at my post, and my own reading of Athenian's posts as inevitably dismissive.

    Maybe that explains some of the communication difficulty. And also this outlook still could support my original contention that Fi and Fe work similarly but with a different "feel." But that "feel" feels very differently to INFPs and INFJs.

    Or something like that. I think I'm getting tired.

  9. #169
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wandering View Post
    What's with all this talk of people going to bed ?? It's lunch time here !!
    Quote Originally Posted by Nadir View Post
    Ya rly Wandering! I'm having exactly that, lol.
    The U.S. crowd on the East Coast should be waking up soon. I'll let you guys take it up with them.

  10. #170
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    Quote Originally Posted by FineLine View Post
    It's probably a question of perception. For example, INFPs express themselves via Ne and will think of themselves as staying open-minded on an issue and playing with it for a while before getting rigid about it. But INFJs may register the INFP's Fi opposition in hiding (I think INFJs are good at sensing a hidden agenda) and sense opposition before the INFP intends to actually express opposition.

    Likewise, INFJs express themselves via Fe and will think of themselves as staying open-minded on an issue out of politeness and playing with it for a while before pushing hard on it. But as an INFP, I tend to be kind of dismissive of Fe; I see it as the judging function that it is (because I see my own Fi as a rigid function); so I ignore the politeness aspect and see it as opposition practically from the start--especially in retrospect, once the INFJ keeps pushing the issue.

    IOW, both parties may think they're projecting an open-minded stance, but they're being read by the other party as taking a rigid stance practically from the start.
    Very good points! I totally see that happening all the time, now that you mention it.

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