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  1. #151
    Highly Hollow Wandering's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FineLine View Post
    It's a fine point: Can one understand others and still have opinions of one's own?
    Isn't that the very definition of a mature INFJ ?

  2. #152
    Protocol Droid Athenian200's Avatar
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    I don't agree with you, FineLine. I can accept ideas without forcing stuff in continually. I'm not interested in doing things your way. I'm not going to do the masochistic stuff you're suggesting. I have a right to live how I wish, and I don't have to listen to you. Dismiss me as immature all you want.

    Quite honestly, it's people like you who make me feel defensive. I was understanding and accepting what a few other people were saying when they explained it. I felt like I was getting it, until you showed up and started trying to force tainted water down my throat all over again.

  3. #153
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    Quote Originally Posted by FineLine View Post
    It's a fine point: Can one understand others and still have opinions of one's own?

    But the point I was raising was that the fellow was merely being dogmatic. He was capable of a more nuanced understanding of the issue, but he didn't want to stretch to see things from anyone else's point of view. Some may see that as a virtue; but it's not a pretty sight when an intelligent fellow falls into petulance and bullying to get his point across in a social discussion of a common social issue.
    Maybe I am misunderstanding you here, it sounded before as if you expected him to listen to other's views and change his view on the death penalty in accordance because others had devoted much thought to the subject. If I misread you on that, I am sorry.

    I have to admit, I have always found the stregnth and conviction of INFJ core opinions admirable. Good grief, for anyone to take a stand about anything these days is admirable.

  4. #154
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wandering View Post
    I personally see this as Shadow Fi getting out of hand. Not saying I'm right and you're wrong, FineLine, just sharing my current personal understanding. Fi is about personal values, and this stunted Fe you describe seems to be working pretty much the way an immature Fi would act.
    When Fe and Fi judge and reject, they do it pretty much the same way. A judgment is a judgment.

    It's more a question of context and "feel": Is the rejection coming from an Auxiliary function or Dominant function, etc. I tend to think of an INFJ's Fe rejection as more dismissive (refusal to even consider the subject), whereas an INFP's Fi rejection is more ferocious because it affects values tied to self-definition.

    I expect you've noticed from your time at INFP-GC that a negative judgment on an issue from an INFP has a different "feel" as opposed to a negative judgment on an issue from an INFJ.

  5. #155
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    Quote Originally Posted by Athenian200 View Post
    I don't agree with you, FineLine. I can accept ideas without forcing stuff in continually. I'm not interested in doing things your way. I'm not going to do the masochistic stuff you're suggesting. I have a right to live how I wish, and I don't have to listen to you. Dismiss me as immature all you want.

    Quite honestly, it's people like you who make me feel defensive. I was understanding and accepting what a few other people were saying when they explained it. I felt like I was getting it, until you showed up and started trying to force tainted water down my throat all over again.
    And yet right here you're doing exactly what FineLine and I have been trying to tell you that you're doing. Instead of trying to understand what we're telling you, you're judging it right away, dismissing it, and even telling us that we're somehow morally wrong for thinking and acting the way we are.

    *sigh*

    You're an INFJ all right. I should know better than trying to MAKE an INFJ see what they are not seeing I'll never learn...

  6. #156
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    Quote Originally Posted by Athenian200 View Post
    I don't agree with you, FineLine. I can accept ideas without forcing stuff in continually. I'm not interested in doing things your way. I'm not going to do the masochistic stuff you're suggesting. I have a right to live how I wish, and I don't have to listen to you. Dismiss me as immature all you want.

    Quite honestly, it's people like you who make me feel defensive. I was understanding and accepting what a few other people were saying when they explained it. I felt like I was getting it, until you showed up and started trying to force tainted water down my throat all over again.
    Like I said at the start of my previous message, I was oversimplifying in order to illustrate. Try reading the material at PersonalityPage.com. They're much more diplomatic in their expression: http://www.personalitypage.com/INFJ_per.html

    Otherwise, I was just answering your question. You're free to live anyway you want. It's no skin off my nose. I was just giving you the current thinking from the point of view of how the functions work. *shrugs*

  7. #157
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    Quote Originally Posted by heart View Post
    Maybe I am misunderstanding you here, it sounded before as if you expected him to listen to other's views and change his view on the death penalty in accordance because others had devoted much thought to the subject. If I misread you on that, I am sorry.

    I have to admit, I have always found the stregnth and conviction of INFJ core opinions admirable. Good grief, for anyone to take a stand about anything these days is admirable.
    It's my illustration, and my point was about taking a dogmatic position versus demonstrating a nuanced understanding of a common social issue.

    None of that has anything to do with taking a stand. One can see both sides of the issue and still take a principled stand.

  8. #158
    Mamma said knock you out Mempy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FineLine View Post
    At least it's Friday!
    Exactly! Sweet blessed relief!

    Sorry you're not receiving /quite/ as much support as I think you deserve, but I really think it was an awesome post, and your subsequent posts do well to further explain your excellently thought out and excellently illustrated point.

    It must take work to write such a long post, but you do it so frequently that perhaps you're practiced. Perhaps you try hard to be concise, but I think you did a good job for the points you were making.

    (Two hours and counting down. )
    They're running just like you
    For you, and I, wooo
    So people, people, need some good ol' love

  9. #159
    Highly Hollow Wandering's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FineLine View Post
    When Fe and Fi judge and reject, they do it pretty much the same way. A judgment is a judgment.
    I'm not sure I completely agree on that, but it's kinda hard to explain.

    It's more a question of context and "feel": Is the rejection coming from an Auxiliary function or Dominant function, etc. I tend to think of an INFJ's Fe rejection as more dismissive (refusal to even consider the subject), whereas an INFP's Fi rejection is more ferocious because it affects values tied to self-definition.
    Speaking of Athenian right now: don't you think it's much more a case of the latter than the former? Just look at the "rejection post" above: it's got "ferocious" and "I reject this because it affects values tied to my self-definition" written all over it, don't you think?

    I expect you've noticed from your time at INFP-GC that a negative judgment on an issue from an INFP has a different "feel" as opposed to a negative judgment on an issue from an INFJ.
    Yup. And in Athenian's case, it sounds far more INFPish than INFJish to my ears. Saying stuff like "I hate you and your values", that's typically angry INFP, from what I've experienced.

  10. #160
    Protocol Droid Athenian200's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wandering View Post
    And yet right here you're doing exactly what FineLine and I have been trying to tell you that you're doing. Instead of trying to understand what we're telling you, you're judging it right away, dismissing it, and even telling us that we're somehow morally wrong for thinking and acting the way we are.

    *sigh*

    You're an INFJ all right. I should know better than trying to MAKE an INFJ see what they are not seeing I'll never learn...
    I didn't mean to give that impression. I thought he was telling me I had to accept ideas without examining them, and even when they are inconsistent, arbitrary, and contradictory in order to be mature, and I don't agree.

    I also felt like he was saying that I had no right to disagree or do things differently because that was the right way, and was forcing the idea on me against my will.

    My attitude is that I can listen to an idea if it's offered to me (rather than forced on me), explain what parts I agree or disagree with, and they turn around and see what they agree/disagree with, etc. I have accepted new ideas, realized things I didn't see before, and changed my opinions on things with little pain in this manner, without feeling like I'm violating myself.

    I didn't feel like FineLine was giving me that option. It felt different with Edahn for some reason, though. And you just now, come to think of it.

    Actually, there seems to be a "vibe" about INFP's that makes me feel like they're forcing their ideas on me, and not allowing me to question or disagree. This usually inflames me, although later I find that wasn't actually their intent. I just don't enjoy communicating with them, it always leaves me agitated and confused.

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