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  1. #131
    Protocol Droid Athenian200's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ThatsWhatHeSaid View Post
    Of course you should consider the consequences! Courage is not the end. It's a means to an end, and it's always wise to calculate whether that end is beneficial of detrimental. Why do you assume people will get hurt? I don't follow your logic.

    Take an end like peace of mind. We can agree that peace of mind is a positive end that tends to benefit both the person and his social circle in most cases, as it tends to come with empathy and compassion. Good. If you examine your life, you may find that the times that bring you peace are when you can act like yourself without worrying about how you're acting. If you disagree, tell me. If you agree, then consider what worrying is -- a fear that something bad will happen. When it comes to being yourself, it's a fear that something bad will happen when you let down your guard. You lose control and open the door to all sorts of things. It takes courage to say "you know what? I think I'll be okay even if all these bad things happen to me." Who's getting hurt here?
    Oh. Well, I was assuming people would get hurt because I usually hear the word "courage" used by people as an excuse for accepting stupid/dangerous dares, or as the reason people in the Old West used to stay in town, stand in the street, and get shot, rather than sneak away or do something their opponent didn't expect in order to win. I never really associated it with anything else. Acting like yourself doesn't really involve courage, because the only thing that could happen is that people could reject you socially/personally (in fact, depending on how likable yourself happens to be, even that might not happen). It would still be difficult for them to kill you, force you to associate with them against your will, or financially ruin you. And this is because of laws, which are enforced in a way that doesn't (usually) depend on people liking you. The fear I had was the implication that there are no laws enforced in ways that don't depend on people liking you, which would mean I had to depend on making people like me and creativity (not something I want expected of me regularly) to avoid the three things I mentioned.
    Trust isn't the reason, it's the tool. I would tend to agree that it doesn't make much sense to make yourself more vulnerable than is necessary, but what is necessary, and what are you trying to accomplish? If it's real friendship that you seek (and I think you probably do) then vulnerability is a necessary element. By vulnerability, I don't mean you expose your wounds. I simply mean that you let down your guard and take the risk of being yourself and being castigated for that.
    There's that idea again, being yourself. Where does that come in? I thought trust was about being vulnerable or something. When I think of being vulnerable, I usually think of putting yourself at risk of physical harm, financial ruin, or being forced to associate with someone against your will. I haven't really met people who expect me to make myself vulnerable to them in those ways. Castigation can't really harm me, unless there really are no laws that don't depend on people liking me, in which case it could literally be fatal. You know, lynching? You are beginning to see why I think laws that aren't subjectively interpreted are necessary, right?
    Eh. I would agree with you that considering what is here to be "good" is fallacious thinking. With that said, I don't think acceptance means seeing things as justified or good. It simply means seeing it. Period. You're still stuck in value judgments, and acceptance refrains from those judgments. As soon as you make a judgment, even calling something "good," you're already implying the non-acceptance of bad. Same goes for "justified." I would argue that this is shallow acceptance, or not acceptance at all.
    I don't know how to see something without judging it. It's almost as if I have to judge something as good or bad just to be aware of it. I'm aware of things I consider bad, however. I usually only discuss goals, it's kind of foreign to me to discuss how something is done, rather than what should be done. Why is it impossible to judge something as bad, but then tolerate it's existence grudgingly? Doesn't that basically have the same result as acceptance, except that with the first one, you'd make things better if you had the chance, but with the latter, you'd just not care one way or the other?

  2. #132
    mrs disregard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Athenian200 View Post
    The fear I had was the implication that there are no laws enforced in ways that don't depend on people liking you, which would mean I had to depend on making people like me and creativity (not something I want expected of me regularly) to avoid the three things I mentioned.
    If you are referring to this forum (I am not sure because you are being very vague), it has already been stated that it is action and not character that cause someone to be officially punished; thus, you don't have to worry about not being liked.

  3. #133
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    Oh. Well, I was assuming people would get hurt because I usually hear the word "courage" used by people as an excuse for accepting stupid/dangerous dares, or as the reason people in the Old West used to stay in town, stand in the street, and get shot, rather than sneak away or do something their opponent didn't expect in order to win. I never really associated it with anything else.
    The movie High Noon was about a valid kind of courage. The character was not foolhearty, he stood up for what was right. For himself, while no one else would.

    Husband reminds me that Firecreek was also about this topic and a better movie. He is right!

  4. #134
    Senior Member ThatsWhatHeSaid's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Athenian200 View Post
    There's that idea again, being yourself. Where does that come in? I thought trust was about being vulnerable or something. When I think of being vulnerable, I usually think of putting yourself at risk of physical harm, financial ruin, or being forced to associate with someone against your will. I haven't really met people who expect me to make myself vulnerable to them in those ways. Castigation can't really harm me, unless there really are no laws that don't depend on people liking me, in which case it could literally be fatal. You know, lynching? You are beginning to see why I think laws that aren't subjectively interpreted are necessary, right?
    I think so. Let me try and rephrase it and you tell me if I'm right. Your fear isn't social/emotional punishment but financial/physical. Your plan, all along, was to rely on following the rules to ensure that you'd be safe. However, you're now questioning the value of that strategy, as you consider whether the rules are really based on subjective liking rather than objective factors. For people that can ingratiate others, that's not a problem, but you're concerned that you're not able to ingratiate others in that way. Right?

    I don't know how to see something without judging it. It's almost as if I have to judge something as good or bad just to be aware of it. I'm aware of things I consider bad, however. I usually only discuss goals, it's kind of foreign to me to discuss how something is done, rather than what should be done.
    I think it takes a lot of practice. A lot. Some people claim to be accepting of things when they're really just faking. In that case, it's obvious that they're not accepting their own limitations, thus faking. Some people meditate, some exercise, some volunteer, some do art, some just play and act silly, some go to therapy. They're all different techniques for calming the mind down and trying to experience things, including yourself, without criticism and without assigning "values" (positive or negative). Is there anything that makes you feel peaceful and fluid?

    Why is it impossible to judge something as bad, but then tolerate it's existence grudgingly? Doesn't that basically have the same result as acceptance, except that with the first one, you'd make things better if you had the chance, but with the latter, you'd just not care one way or the other?
    I don't know. Good question. How do you feel after you've come to tolerate? Is your mind at ease or are you thinking when's this sunnuvabitch going to stop talking? when's this sunnuvabitch going to stop talking? when's this sunnuvabitch going to stop talking?

  5. #135
    Protocol Droid Athenian200's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dana View Post
    If you are referring to this forum (I am not sure because you are being very vague), it has already been stated that it is action and not character that cause someone to be officially punished; thus, you don't have to worry about not being liked.
    I mean in real life, too, actually. Legal system, everything.

    Quote Originally Posted by ThatsWhatHeSaid View Post
    I think so. Let me try and rephrase it and you tell me if I'm right. Your fear isn't social/emotional punishment but financial/physical. Your plan, all along, was to rely on following the rules to ensure that you'd be safe. However, you're now questioning the value of that strategy, as you consider whether the rules are really based on subjective liking rather than objective factors. For people that can ingratiate others, that's not a problem, but you're concerned that you're not able to ingratiate others in that way. Right?
    That's pretty much it. I don't think I should have to live in such a way that I can only be safe if people like me. That puts undue strain on me, and would indeed mean I couldn't afford to be myself. It would literally mean I had to do what other people wanted all the time just to avoid being lynched, because there would be nothing else to which I could appeal if they disliked me for some reason. But if we do have laws that aren't subjectively enforced, then this isn't a problem.


    I think it takes a lot of practice. A lot. Some people claim to be accepting of things when they're really just faking. In that case, it's obvious that they're not accepting their own limitations, thus faking. Some people meditate, some exercise, some volunteer, some do art, some just play and act silly, some go to therapy. They're all different techniques for calming the mind down and trying to experience things, including yourself, without criticism and without assigning "values" (positive or negative). Is there anything that makes you feel peaceful and fluid?
    Well, a lot of things make me feel peaceful... sometimes just lying down and imagining a perfect situation can do that. It can happen when I'm learning something as well. That doesn't really have to do with acceptance, although it makes me serene.

    But what I don't get is how I can know what something is, without examining it or applying judgment to some degree. If I stop judging things around me, I just zone out and start daydreaming about things I already know.
    I don't know. Good question. How do you feel after you've come to tolerate? Is your mind at ease or are you thinking when's this sunnuvabitch going to stop talking? when's this sunnuvabitch going to stop talking? when's this sunnuvabitch going to stop talking?
    Well, when I first start to tolerate, I do think "when will they shut up?" But after a while, I begin to just ignore them when they start talking about that subject, because I already know I disagree with them, and try to change it as soon as possible. Eventually I'm just calm when they start talking about that issue, because I'm not paying attention to them.

  6. #136
    Senior Member ThatsWhatHeSaid's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Athenian200 View Post
    That's pretty much it. I don't think I should have to live in such a way that I can only be safe if people like me. That puts undue strain on me, and would indeed mean I couldn't afford to be myself. It would literally mean I had to do what other people wanted all the time just to avoid being lynched, because there would be nothing else to which I could appeal if they disliked me for some reason. But if we do have laws that aren't subjectively enforced, then this isn't a problem.
    I don't think you have anything to worry about. Subjectivity might play some role in the administration of justice, but it's role is attenuated thanks to a legal system that emphasizes objectivity. But even if there is subjectivity in our system, I don't think it'll affect you (harm you) on the level and to the degree you're worried about.

    I still stand by my original advice to you, to simply try to be as genuine as you can when you talk to people and to listen as best you can. Nothing too special or mystical, just attention. I think it would really benefit you as well as take care of your concerns.

    Well, a lot of things make me feel peaceful... sometimes just lying down and imagining a perfect situation can do that. It can happen when I'm learning something as well. That doesn't really have to do with acceptance, although it makes me serene.
    I would propose that the common theme in both these activities is getting your mind off your worrying, that is, off your thinking and off your habit of assessing and evaluating the data streams that constitute your mind. In the first method, you alleviate your worrying by pretending like you've got nothing to worry about. In the second, you focus your mind on something else, sharply. Acceptance is a lot like the first method. Instead of thinking "I have this, so I don't have to worry," you think "I don't care if I have this, so I don't have to worry." So to that extent, I'd say you're already practicing something a lot like acceptance.

    But what I don't get is how I can know what something is, without examining it or applying judgment to some degree. If I stop judging things around me, I just zone out and start daydreaming about things I already know.
    Have you ever tried meditating? This is exactly what happens to n00b meditators. It still happens to me when I try and sit without letting my mind wander and judge everything, including the quality of my meditation. Practice.

    Well, when I first start to tolerate, I do think "when will they shut up?" But after a while, I begin to just ignore them when they start talking about that subject, because I already know I disagree with them, and try to change it as soon as possible. Eventually I'm just calm when they start talking about that issue, because I'm not paying attention to them.
    "Is acceptance the same as judgment+toleration?"

    Are you really tolerating, or are you just withdrawing ("ignoring") and avoiding ("changing the subject")? I think there's a difference. When I think of tolerating something, like my anxiety, I think of confronting it, allowing it to be there, and connecting to it. Ultimately, it's a process of befriending. Withdrawing and escaping is more the opposite and the thing that tends to get me in more trouble. It sounds like you're somewhere in the middle. That's cool.

  7. #137
    Highly Hollow Wandering's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Athenian200 View Post
    But what I don't get is how I can know what something is, without examining it or applying judgment to some degree. If I stop judging things around me, I just zone out and start daydreaming about things I already know.
    Do you realise that Ni, your Dominant, is a *Perceiving* function, not a Judging one? DomNis NEED to "daydream about things they already know", because that's exactly how Ni works. By constantly examining and applying judgement, I fear you are in effect squelching the very source of positivity, security and strength in your inner being. No wonder you feel overwhelmed by the world.

  8. #138
    Senior Member alcea rosea's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Athenian200 View Post
    Very well, then. The values I am disgusted by are:

    1. Courage -
    2. Trust -
    3. Acceptance,
    The post where these were mentioned made me sad.
    Without courage there is not trust and not acceptance.
    Without trust and acceptance there is not coperation.
    Without coperation there is no civilization.
    Without coperation there is no love.
    Without love there is nothing.

  9. #139
    Senior Member alcea rosea's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wandering View Post
    Do you realise that Ni, your Dominant, is a *Perceiving* function, not a Judging one? DomNis NEED to "daydream about things they already know", because that's exactly how Ni works. By constantly examining and applying judgement, I fear you are in effect squelching the very source of positivity, security and strength in your inner being. No wonder you feel overwhelmed by the world.
    Yes, but being introvert, your second fuction shows to the outer world. So in this case it (should) be Fe. In INTP's case it's Ne. That's the problem with noticing introverts first and second function. The first isn't visible to others but the second is. So ISTP, for example, the Ti (judging) is not visible to outside but Se is. Ti however has it's effects when ISTP's can be very judgemental (the values example). I have myself experienced this controversy at home.

  10. #140
    Highly Hollow Wandering's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alcea Rosea View Post
    Yes, but being introvert, your second fuction shows to the outer world.
    True, but I was going after Athenian's self-description that either she judges stuff, or her mind starts wandering: that seems to me to clearly describe her *inner* working, not her outside one.

    (I'm having a stupid doubt suddenly: you *are* a she, right, Athenian?)

    So in this case it (should) be Fe.
    Not much Fe I see coming in and out of our Athenian, from what she herself says

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