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Validity of Drug-Induced Spiritual Experiences

Mole

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What is amazing to me is that in a thread on Spirituality, mention is made of Jack Daniels, heroine, meth and weed.

For anyone in love with spirituality all of the above are artificial; they are fake spirituality; they are phoney spirituality.

So anyone using them in the name of spirituality is an imposter.

Victor.
 

ThatsWhatHeSaid

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What is amazing to me is that in a thread on Spirituality, mention is made of Jack Daniels, heroine, meth and weed.

For anyone in love with spirituality all of the above are artificial; they are fake sprirituality; they are phoney spirituality.

So anyone using them in the name of spirituality is an imposter.

Victor.

Absolutely not.

Why should there be a difference? One person uses meditation to calm himself down, another uses a depressant. Granted, the long-term side effects might be different, but that doesn't detract from the quality of the experience. One is a high-brow method, the other is low-brow.
 

Mole

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Propaganda

Absolutely not.

Why should there be a difference? One person uses meditation to calm himself down, another uses a depressant. Granted, the long-term side effects might be different, but that doesn't detract from the quality of the experience. One is a high-brow method, the other is low-brow.

But there is a vast difference in the quality of the experience.

One is authentic and real and the other is fake and phoney.

To suggest they are the same is merely a semantic trick.

For a very long time we have been fed on the propaganda that weed, heroine, acid and meth are pathways to the spiritual life.

And for a long time we have seen this is good propanda but is untrue.

I can't understand why you would think we would believe your propaganda.

Victor.
 

Anonymous

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For a very long time we have been fed on the propaganda that weed, heroine, acid and meth are pathways to the spiritual life.

We have?

And for a long time we have seen this is good propanda but is untrue.

We have?

I think you need to start substituting your "we" with an "I" there, Victor.

And I imagine that Victor would get all paranoid and start tweaking out.
 

Mole

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We have?



We have?

I think you need to start substituting your "we" with an "I" there, Victor.

And I imagine that Victor would get all paranoid and start tweaking out.

Gosh, in the 1950's we were fed the propanda that alcohol was the poor man's mysticism.

And in the 1960's we were fed the propaganda that acid et al was the way to enlightenment.

The problem is so many believed this propaganda in part because they wanted too.

And it is important to remember that propaganda is neither true nor false, only plausible.

And in fact this propaganda is highly plausible and untrue.

Victor.
 

ThatsWhatHeSaid

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But there is a vast difference in the quality of the experience.

One is authentic and real and the other is fake and phoney.

Because... you say so? What's the difference? The way I see it, they're just two different vehicles for arriving at the same destination. One is more permanent, and the ride back is bumpier.

To suggest they are the same is merely a semantic trick.

Is has nothing to do with words. It has to do with the experience itself, which is similar if not identical.

For a very long time we have been fed on the propaganda that weed, heroine, acid and meth are pathways to the spiritual life.

And for a long time we have seen this is good propanda but is untrue.

I can't understand why you would think we would believe your propaganda.

Victor.

You're just repeating your conclusion instead of explaining anything.
 

millerm277

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For a very long time we have been fed on the propaganda that weed, heroine, acid and meth are pathways to the spiritual life.

Well, from what I've heard, they certainly seem to be able to invoke spiritual feelings in some people. I'm fairly confident that you haven't done any of those (neither have I), so how would you know if they do or don't invoke a spiritual feeling?

And, what people say they experienced isn't exactly propaganda.

We seem to be getting away from the original topic though.
 

disregard

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The native americans took peyote to achieve spiritual enlightenment, but I'm pretty sure what you've listed, Victor, are substances that are abused to achieve ecstasy, relaxation, or hallucination.
 

ThatsWhatHeSaid

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Spirituality in general is fake, IMO.

Maybe your definition of spiritual is too rigid? I think of spiritual as anything that puts you "in touch," usually with yourself, which helps you connect to other people or things.

I'm not saying that drugs are the only or even the preferred gateway, but I think they can be a good way to glimpse what's out there and whet one's appetite. As Alan Watts said about psychedelics: once you've got the message, hang up the phone.
 

Mole

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Rotten Fruit

Spirituality in general is fake, IMO.

Surprisingly, I agree with you. Mainly because to appear to be spiritual gives social kudos.

Really the only way to see the quality of a spiritual life is to see the fruits.

And alas, the fruit of narcotics is rotten.

Victor.
 

Mole

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Transcending Ourselves

Maybe your definition of spiritual is too rigid? I think of spiritual as anything that puts you "in touch," usually with yourself, which helps you connect to other people or things.

I'm not saying that drugs are the only or even the preferred gateway, but I think they can be a good way to glimpse what's out there and whet one's appetite. As Alan Watts said about psychedelics: once you've got the message, hang up the phone.

I appreciate you thinking about this.

And I find it hard to think about.

Perhaps the spiritual life is not about oneself - in particular, not about the part of oneself we call the ego.

We spend about 22 years sometimes painfully developing our ego - and so naturally it is one of our treasured possessions.

But it seems to me that the spiritual life is about transcending our ego - certainly not replacing it or diminishing it - but taking it for granted and moving on to a world larger than ourselves.

So perhaps spirituality is not about feeling better but being bigger. I don't know.

Victor.
 

aeon

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Victor:

Humanity's history with using plant-based entheogens as part of ritualized shamanic experience is long indeed.

Would you tell those people that their spiritual experience was fake?


wondering,
Ian
 

aeon

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And when can hang up, you don't want to.

And when you want to hang up, you can't.

Victor, psychedelics demonstrate no addictive characteristic.


cheers,
Ian
 

millerm277

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And when can hang up, you don't want to.

And when you want to hang up, you can't.

Victor.

Not entirely, many drugs are not addictive. Two that I can think of off the top of my head are LSD and Marijuana. LSD is non-addictive, and Marijuana is less addictive than caffeine.
 

SillySapienne

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Drug induced, fear induced, sleep-deprived induced, what have you...If a person experiences a "spiritual" moment, to and for them, that moment was experienced, and is therefore valid.

I've had plenty of "spiritual" experiences in my life, some major, and some more minor in nature, some drug induced, while most have not been.

When I was 11 I went to the Grand Canyon for a camping trip, and was blown away by its enormity and beauty, so much so I began to cry. Needless to say, I was *not* intoxicated then.

When I was 17 I was in Hawaii, and I met the most fantastic guy with whom I really connected to, and one day we spent the entire afternoon walking around a Chinese cemetery and made out *inside* of a banyon tree, it was the first time I had ever connected with a guy, and I would definitely classify it as a "spiritual" experience.

That same trip, I tried MDMA for the first time, and for the first time in my then 17 years of life, I had actually bonded with my sister who at the time I more or less *hated*. That night marks a pivotal moment not only in my life, but in what would become our new founded relationship as sisters. Was it drug induced? Yes. Does that matter?? No.

I have had psilocybin induced "spiritual" experieces as well, one time I was tripping with my best friend in an old cemetery in Boulder, Colorado. It was a beautiful crisp spring night, and we were laying on the grass looking at the stars, I recall being overwhelmed by the seemingly inherent wonder and beauty within and amongst nature, and there was nothing "fake" or "phony" about this experience.

Honestly, I can list twenty more non-drug induced such moments, but I'll spare your eyes.

If you experience a moment of wonder, regardless of why or how, that moment is real, and should be regarded as such.
 

Grayscale

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unless someone can quantify what "spiritual" means, exactly, then im inclined to say all experiences are equally "spiritual"

as it seems to me, though, if you're aiming for validity, spirituality is not a description you want to gravitate towards.
 
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