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  1. #21
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    Default The Ten Percenters

    Quote Originally Posted by aeon View Post
    Victor, psychedelics demonstrate no addictive characteristic.


    cheers,
    Ian
    We know with accuracy the percentage who become addicted to alcohol because alcolhol has been with us for a long time and because there have been many Reliable and Valid meaures of the percentage addicted. And it is 10%.

    The other narcotics have only recently been with us on a large scale and the measurements of addiction are sparse.

    However, with this in mind, the measurement so far suggest the percentage of addiction is about the same, 10%.

    So most users of narcotics, including alcohol, will not become addicted.

    This has led to the false impression that some narcotics are not addictive.

    Victor.

  2. #22
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Victor View Post
    So perhaps spirituality is not about feeling better but being bigger.
    Finally: Something with some depth that I can agree with...

    Stick on that track.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  3. #23
    Occasional Member Evan's Avatar
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    i've had some major spiritual experiences under the influence of shrooms and LSD. i was in a sort of existential crisis from 18-21, and i tripped probably 100+ times in that period. every single trip was spiritual.

    getting torn out of reality isn't really the spiritual part. it's when you gradually shift back into a sober state that the most epiphanies come. that was the part of the trip i lived for. it's like a puzzle -- you have no clue what the fuck is happening during the peak, and afterwards you piece together slowly but surely what happened in your peak with sober human concepts.

    as much as everyone says "you can get there by meditation!" blah blah, i think that's a bunch of bullshit. those drugs physically change your brain in ways that aren't possible with the chemicals normally available. i feel sorry for people that write hallucinogens off as "fake" -- they'll never experience the amazing things i've experienced.

    on the other hand, i relied too heavily on those drugs for meaning -- i got swept away. there were trips where i'd take 10 hits of acid or 8 grams of shrooms or 5 hits of acid+an eighth of shrooms. i've tried 2CB, 2CI, DMT; anything i could get my hands on. i got a little bit carried away.

    but it's only because tripping is a GUARANTEED spiritual experience (as long as you take enough). it was almost too easy for me to get to those spiritual states. that's where the opposite point really does come in. it DOES kind of subtract from the experience that you needed some aid to get there. but that doesn't at all mean it isn't spiritual.

    i've also had 1 spiritual experience on MDMA, but that drug has more of the "fake" feeling to it, at least for me. i've taken MDMA about 20 times, and only 2 were worth it -- only 1 of those was spiritual.

    i would not be as "enlightened" as i am now if i had never taken those drugs.

  4. #24
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    Default The Fruits of a Particular Spiritual Path

    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainChick View Post
    Drug induced, fear induced, sleep-deprived induced, what have you...If a person experiences a "spiritual" moment, to and for them, that moment was experienced, and is therefore valid.

    I've had plenty of "spiritual" experiences in my life, some major, and some more minor in nature, some drug induced, while most have not been.

    When I was 11 I went to the Grand Canyon for a camping trip, and was blown away by its enormity and beauty, so much so I began to cry. Needless to say, I was *not* intoxicated then.

    When I was 17 I was in Hawaii, and I met the most fantastic guy with whom I really connected to, and one day we spent the entire afternoon walking around a Chinese cemetery and made out *inside* of a banyon tree, it was the first time I had ever connected with a guy, and I would definitely classify it as a "spiritual" experience.

    That same trip, I tried MDMA for the first time, and for the first time in my then 17 years of life, I had actually bonded with my sister who at the time I more or less *hated*. That night marks a pivotal moment not only in my life, but in what would become our new founded relationship as sisters. Was it drug induced? Yes. Does that matter?? No.

    I have had psilocybin induced "spiritual" experieces as well, one time I was tripping with my best friend in an old cemetery in Boulder, Colorado. It was a beautiful crisp spring night, and we were laying on the grass looking at the stars, I recall being overwhelmed by the seemingly inherent wonder and beauty within and amongst nature, and there was nothing "fake" or "phony" about this experience.

    Honestly, I can list twenty more non-drug induced such moments, but I'll spare your eyes.

    If you experience a moment of wonder, regardless of why or how, that moment is real, and should be regarded as such.
    We are all spiritual creatures, including the Capt'n, who has the wonderful gift of empathy.

    And empathy is perhaps the queen of spiritual gifts.

    For short hand, we are sometimes described as halfway between animals and angels.

    And spiritually has been with us from the beginning and has a history.

    And as we develop our spirituality develops as well.

    However we usually learn by making mistakes - a baby leans to walk by falling over and getting up again - it is the same with spirituality.

    So by learning the history of spirituality, we can learn from the mistakes others have made - for instance, Tim Jones and Jones Town are an object lesson.

    So we can learn the value of a particular spiritual path by the fruits it produces.

    Victor.

  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    Finally: Something with some depth that I can agree with...

    Stick on that track.
    Good on you, Jennifer.

    Victor,

  6. #26
    Senior Member ThatsWhatHeSaid's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Victor View Post
    Perhaps the spiritual life is not about oneself - in particular, not about the part of oneself we call the ego.

    We spend about 22 years sometimes painfully developing our ego - and so naturally it is one of our treasured possessions.

    But it seems to me that the spiritual life is about transcending our ego - certainly not replacing it or diminishing it - but taking it for granted and moving on to a world larger than ourselves.

    So perhaps spirituality is not about feeling better but being bigger. I don't know.

    Victor.
    I think spirituality (and hopefully dissonance'll back me up on this) is about getting in touch with the real you. Who are you? What are you? What is this thing I call "me?" Is there such a thing? How can you even put it into words without sacrificing something material? You can't.

    Quote Originally Posted by Victor View Post
    And when can hang up, you don't want to.

    And when you want to hang up, you can't.

    Victor.
    F that. I hung up the phone just fine. I tried shrooms 3 times in college and acid once. I'm 28 now.

  7. #27
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    Default From the Person to Society

    Quote Originally Posted by Grayscale View Post
    unless someone can quantify what "spiritual" means, exactly, then im inclined to say all experiences are equally "spiritual"

    as it seems to me, though, if you're aiming for validity, spirituality is not a description you want to gravitate towards.
    It is difficult, perhaps impossibe, to quantify spirituality. Rather spirituality is more a question of quality.

    In the same way it is difficult to quantify poetry - for instance, is more poetry better than less poety? - rather we develop our taste in poetry - we are more poetasters than, say, poet metricians.

    And as we find it difficult to quantify spirituality or poetry, we can only look at spirituality indirectly through the fruit it produces.

    So spirituality is more a question of good taste - is the fruit sweet and ripe - does a particular spiritual path lead to empathy and creativity? - do some spiritualities lead to a good society?

    Spirituality starts with the person and leads outward to the good society.

    Victor.

  8. #28
    Resident Snot-Nose GZA's Avatar
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    I've never done any drug (unless you count alcohol), but I really don't think anyone who hasn't done drugs has any right to decide if they are valid spiritual experiences, or if they are good experiences in any light, or anything about them at all. I don't want to be rude... but if you havn't done those drugs, shut the fuck up and don't decide what they do or don't do and how valid it is.

    The thing about spirituality is that it is entirely subjective. Everyone decides what is spiritual for them, and what isn't. What transcends regular existance, what brings a sense of epiphany is unique to every person, and therefor if someone says they had a spiritual experience on whatever drug or doing whatever activity or whatever reason, take there word for it. The only way it isn't true is if the person has misidentified it (which probably doesn't happen much... I think you kind of know a spiritual experience when you see one), if the person is simply lying, or if they are brainwashed (would would require them to later realize soemthing they thought was a spiritual experience actually wasn't).

    I have had several experiences I would say were spiritual in nature. The first time I listened to Jimi Hendrix was spiritual -it took everything to a whole new level, it was an eye opener for me in many ways I'm not even sure how to describe, and that moment is responsible for a lot that has followed in my life and my sense of self. Music is general is spiritual to me. A Love Supreme by John Coltrane has given me spiritual like experiences, meditation type things, many times. Booze has given me one spiritual experience where I really connected with people (mainly a guy I've been friends with for several years but got detatched from for a while) and it made me realize just how important friendship is and how great and complex every person is. Camping in the Georgian Bay Islands was spiritual for me for the beauty and freedom it gave. Sometimes, just the right mix of natural beauty... something that leaves you in shock and awe because of it's sheer power (in my cases, Hendrix, Coltrane, Georgian Bay, ect) and reflection and rumination can make a big difference to you and have a massive influence on your thoughts and attitudes towards things. As someone said (Ross, I think), they are experiences that totally single handedly elevate your sense of self and reveal things about yourself you did not know or repressed.

    Its in the eye of the beholder as much or more than anything else I can possibly think of. If someone says something gave them a sense of enlightenment and of transcending their normal place in reality, don't question it, because that is something only they know for sure, and they do know for sure.

  9. #29
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    Default Talking on the Telephone

    Quote Originally Posted by ThatsWhatHeSaid
    F that. I hung up the phone just fine. I tried shrooms 3 times in college and acid once. I'm 28 now.
    It's true that 90% of users don't become addicted - 90% can hang up the phone.

    Victor.

  10. #30
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    Default Authenticity - One of the Fruits of Spirituality

    Quote Originally Posted by ThatsWhatHeSaid View Post
    I think spirituality (and hopefully dissonance'll back me up on this) is about getting in touch with the real you. Who are you? What are you? What is this thing I call "me?" Is there such a thing? How can you even put it into words without sacrificing something material? You can't.
    It's true - one of the fruits of some spiritual paths is authenticity or the real you.

    And that is because now you can be authentic with others and validate their authenticity.

    Victor.

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