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Is it rape if...

MacGuffin

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Yup. There's a vast distinction in perception based on the various power dynamics of the situation. If either of the parties feels like they have been exploited by the other, then something is wrong about that.

That doesn't make it rape though.
 

Spamtar

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Calling everything under the sun rape seems to diminish the seriousness of real rape (i.e. rape: unconsentual sexual intercourse with another)

Is it rape if...
would these hypothetical situations be considered rape?

1) you hypnotize someone into having sex with you. If hypnotism was able to take away anothers ability to consent, but it does not.

2) you get someone drunk so that you can manipulate them to have sex with you. If the victim were too drunk to be able to consent (not just say it but be mentally sound enough to mean it).

3) you have sex with someone controversially younger than you, but they consent. If they were under the legal age to consent under the law (most places 18 years old then its statutory rape. Varies jurisdiction to jurisdiction esp if male is also a minor or younger than the victim might be mitigated sex crime)

4) you manipulate someone into having sex with you when you know they'll regret it later. Doesn't sound like rape unless the manipulation was so significant as to be unconsentual at the time of intercourse. There must be a unity of mens rea and actus reus(i.e pointing gun at victim or another to the point of being under extreme duress)


5) you threaten to withdraw support for an individual if they don't have sex with you (not support that they need, like a job, money for living expenses or healthcare, but some other type of support that they can survive without) Not rape unless perhaps if you had a legal duty to maintain or continue support. Cant drive a date to the middle of nowwhere and say "put out or get out" because that might be rape

6) you threaten to withdraw support that the individual does need (such as those listed above)Not rape unless perhaps if legal duty to maintain, extortion or other extreme duress; see above)

7) you make your spouse have sex with you after they have been withholding it from you. If you "make" without their consent its rape. If you make with their consent then not rape.

8) someone has consented to have sex with you. you're in the middle of things and they say "stop!" and you don't. Consent may be withdrawn for sex. Thus when consent withdrawn then must stop. Not much case law on this that I am aware of but I am sure that a reasonable amount of time to process the withdrawal and act on it is allowed. If the woman likes to yell stop, start, stop, start during sex it is probably a good idea to get your rocks off with someone else instead as she is a head case who will lead you to prison.

Avoid having sex with someone you dont know at least pretty good because it can be easy to prosecute you if they decide to lie about not consenting. If you go to prison for rape it will be "hard time". Prisoners hate rapists...maybe to the point of raping you for it.
 

Viridian

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Is it considered "rape" is a woman does it? Like, with... artificial equipment? /honestly curious
 

King sns

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Is it considered "rape" is a woman does it? Like, with... artificial equipment? /honestly curious

Only if the man presses charges......
And what are the chances of that happening?

"She raped me, Judge!"
(Plaintiff gets laughed out of court.)
 

Spamtar

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Is it considered "rape" is a woman does it? Like, with... artificial equipment? /honestly curious

That is not sexual intercourse that is sodomy/sexual assault. I am unaware of any jurisdiction that has prosecuted a female for "rape" (besides statutory rape)
 

Viridian

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That is not sexual intercourse that is sodomy/sexual assault. I am unaware of any jurisdiction that has prosecuted a female for "rape" (besides statutory rape)

Hmmm... I didn't know there was a distinction. I learn something new every day! :D
 

Spamtar

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Hmmm... I didn't know there was a distinction. I learn something new every day! :D

Rape has its own sentencing scheme and since it has been a crime since the early days of the common law there is a lot of case law distinguishing it. Nevertheless there are tons of illegal acts in the western world for a person to be punished for so for most of us the distinguishment is academic
 

erm

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All these examples describe what happens in the scenario. So asking if it is rape is asking about something other than the scenario itself. The moral opinion of the person being asked, the law's position etc.

The law's position is easy enough to find out from most governments, on the internet at least. A moral opinion is a complex topic in itself, but about the reactions to the scenario rather than the scenario itself. It could also be a semantic question where definitions are simply made up.

Other than that, rape in its modern form is very new. Before the women's sufferage movement, aka first-wave feminism, a man forcing himself upon a woman was generally regarded as something closer to vandalism, if the woman's sexual purity was valued (a virgin or belonging to someone else), otherwise it was often not even seen as bad as that. There were exceptions however, but the modern conception of rape, especially from the 1970s onwards, is quite unique. It's still solidifying into culture, and thus opinions on the matter are changing rather rapidly even now. Most changes are in the direction of those nos to the OP changing into yeses. Certainly the more borderline cases would have been seen as quite acceptable and normal not many decades ago.
 

Spamtar

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^I tend to disagree to a point. Even historically "rape" [ originally sexual intercourse without consent by someone other than the husband] has generally been well grounded as criminal in most western societies. Perhaps not for the same reasons as today (i.e. a woman's individual right) but more of a social concern (the village and families would have to take care of/be burdened by all the bastards from the resulting pregnancies).

To the point were even consentual courtship could be dangerous if the village/family were not open to the idea.

Thus under the Common Law, rape was a felony and felonies were of particular concern in the old days because they were punishable by execution.
 

sciski

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I'm curious to know if role-reversal changes any opinions:

Would you consider yourself as having been raped (by man or woman, assuming penetration so that the 'invasive' aspect is maintained) in each scenario?
Assume that the perpetrator (person A) is someone you would otherwise not have sex with.

1) You 'wake up' from hypnotism to find you've had sex with person A.
2) You wake up in the morning to find that you've had sex with person A, who spent the night getting you very drunk.
3) You have sex with person A who is way way older than you (an exception to the rule that person A is someone you would otherwise not have sex with)
4) You have sex with person A because they manipulated you somehow.
5) You have sex with person A to keep the perks coming.
6) You have sex with person A because otherwise you will die, starve, become homeless or unemployed.
7) Your husband/wife forces you to have sex even though you haven't wanted to for ages.
8) You start having sex with someone (with consent) and halfway through, tell them to stop. They don't.
 

Spamtar

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^it seems like this revision doesn't create more objectivity but rather a bias. Its in the same vein as inserting your daughter in the position of the individual who is penetrated. It also seems to create presumption that there is no consent. Regardless my answers would be the same (i.e. depends if there was consent at the time of the act)
 

sciski

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Hmm, I guess so, though I only used the "you" perspective because the OP used it as well. Perhaps removing "Assume that the perpetrator is someone you otherwise wouldn't have sex with" would help, though the OP implies that this is the case.

Yes, it boils down to consent.
 

onemoretime

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Several of those situations had clear consent, just something like regret afterward.

4) Depends on what's meant by "manipulation." If it involves lies and misrepresentation, while common, it still would not constitute a cognizable agreement, and thus, no consent

5) That's a coercive quid-pro-quo. If an employer did it, it would be illegal sexual harassment under Title VII. If it were a contract, it would be voided as formed under duress. No consent.

Everything else seems fairly non-consensual.
 

Spamtar

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4) Depends on what's meant by "manipulation." If it involves lies and misrepresentation, while common, it still would not constitute a cognizable agreement, and thus, no consent

5) That's a coercive quid-pro-quo. If an employer did it, it would be illegal sexual harassment under Title VII. If it were a contract, it would be voided as formed under duress. No consent.

Everything else seems fairly non-consensual.

At least as for most western criminal jurisdiction (sexual harassment is predominantly civil where the issue of rape would be very rare extreme act ) "consent" addresses as to intent to allow or engage in the physical act itself. It not be contingent upon an inducement (absent extreme physical distress or threat of violence). Thus fraud in the inducement is not applicable when it comes to rape (although it would make a civil contract voidable). There is even case law where a false marriage, in order to have sexual relations, was deemed not to be rape.
 

onemoretime

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At least as for most western criminal jurisdiction (sexual harassment is predominantly civil where the issue of rape would be very rare extreme act ) "consent" addresses as to intent to allow or engage in the physical act itself. It not be contingent upon an inducement (absent extreme physical distress or threat of violence). Thus fraud in the inducement is not applicable when it comes to rape (although it would make a civil contract voidable). There is even case law where a false marriage, in order to have sexual relations, was deemed not to be rape.

Those were used as analogical points.
 

CzeCze

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I take this to mean that fear and offense have disabled critical thought.

No, it means "I already know the answer to this question" but I don't feel like pretending to entertain it on 'purely philosophical grounds' because that just plays into bs IMHO. Which my Fi morals do not allow me to do. Basically, I can't politely pretend to banter ideas for posed question that I find fundamentally problematic. The question may seem neutral and benign but the playing field is not if you can see the whole arena. If someone, wait, if a group of men posed the question, "Hypothetically if your wife really wants you to beat her, is this okay?" I wouldn't even enter the convo on "philosophical grounds". The 'philosophical grounds' are bs and are coming from a privileged/skewed perspective and I would basically be stuck trying to re/define terms.

There you go with your sexism again

Thanks pookie, I'm glad you approve.

Do you disagree with my sentiments? Or just dodging the issue?

I have nothing against women who use men for money or get men to spend lots of money on them. Feminine wiles have been the only viable bargaining/survival tool/social currency/option for women for many, many generations. If a man is trying to buy sex from a woman and then doesn't get it, can you really fault the woman? I don't. Next time a dood is tempted to throw money at a girl hoping her panties fly off, just remember that no woman is obligated to thank men with her body so if you still strike out you have no one to blame but yourself. If you want that kind of 'sure thing' go to a professional.
 

onemoretime

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I have nothing against women who use men for money or get men to spend lots of money on them. Feminine wiles have been the only viable bargaining/survival tool/social currency/option for women for many, many generations. If a man is trying to buy sex from a woman and then doesn't get it, can you really fault the woman? I don't. Next time a dood is tempted to throw money at a girl hoping her panties fly off, just remember that no woman is obligated to thank men with her body so if you still strike out you have no one to blame but yourself. If you want that kind of 'sure thing' go to a professional.

You know, men are human beings with emotions, too.
 
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