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  1. #191
    Dreaming the life onemoretime's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by redcheerio View Post
    OK, well if you would still apply the same subjectivity standard to the gender-reversal example I gave, then I'll leave it at that. It's true that someone could be more devastated by romantic manipulation and rejection, than by the violence and extreme personal violation that rape is (including sodomy).
    Just curious, why did you feel the need to embellish the description of rape juxtaposed with a fairly straightforward description of romantic manipulation and rejection?

    But aside from differences in personal reaction, I think most people would agree that rape (including sodomy) is a far more violent and violating offense than romantic manipulation.
    Most people in this country would also agree that there's a God who personally cares about their own particular well-being. Furthermore, many of those people think that anyone who disagrees with them is condemned to eternal hellfire, while rapists and manipulators can be forgiven for their sins.

    Consensus may be useful, but by no means is it meaningful in any real way.

    And I didn't label or negate you. I guessed your motivation for the argument, but made it clear I was just guessing, ie. I was acknowledging that I could be wrong. I admit I can't read your mind.
    That's the thing about guessing - it's sort of risky and pointless unless you know the person particularly well.

  2. #192
    Senior Member redcheerio's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by onemoretime View Post
    Just curious, why did you feel the need to embellish the description of rape juxtaposed with a fairly straightforward description of romantic manipulation and rejection?
    To emphasize my point that one is violent + shitty while the other is just shitty.

    So would you use your same subjectivity argument in my gender-reversed scenario that I gave?


    Quote Originally Posted by onemoretime View Post
    Most people in this country would also agree that there's a God who personally cares about their own particular well-being. Furthermore, many of those people think that anyone who disagrees with them is condemned to eternal hellfire, while rapists and manipulators can be forgiven for their sins.

    Consensus may be useful, but by no means is it meaningful in any real way.
    OK.


    Quote Originally Posted by onemoretime View Post
    That's the thing about guessing - it's sort of risky and pointless unless you know the person particularly well.
    Except that I was upfront about my guess, so it removed the risk and allowed you to respond as if I'd asked you directly. Next time I'll ask, how about that?

  3. #193
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    Men and Women have equally damaging weapons with which to hurt one another.

    No one has the market cornered on pain.

  4. #194
    Senior Member redcheerio's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DiscoBiscuit View Post
    Men and Women have equally damaging weapons with which to hurt one another.

    No one has the market cornered on pain.


    Maybe their "weapons" are too different to compare.

  5. #195
    Dreaming the life onemoretime's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by redcheerio View Post
    To emphasize my point that one is violent + shitty while the other is just shitty.

    So would you use your same subjectivity argument in my gender-reversed scenario that I gave?
    You see, though, that assumes that everyone agrees that it being violent makes it worse somehow. It demonizes physical violence with respect to psychological and emotional violence.

    And yes, I would use the same subjectivity argument.

    Except that I was upfront about my guess, so it removed the risk and allowed you to respond as if I'd asked you directly. Next time I'll ask, how about that?
    Not really - it just gave you a means to CYA in case you got called out. Don't worry, I use that one all the time. Doesn't mean I don't know that it's complete bullshit, as well.

  6. #196
    Senior Member redcheerio's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by onemoretime View Post
    You see, though, that assumes that everyone agrees that it being violent makes it worse somehow. It demonizes physical violence with respect to psychological and emotional violence.
    Not really, but I've already explained why I disagree. I see what you're trying to say, and that this argument is going nowhere. Let's agree to disagree.


    Quote Originally Posted by onemoretime View Post
    And yes, I would use the same subjectivity argument.
    OK, fair enough then.


    Quote Originally Posted by onemoretime View Post
    Not really - it just gave you a means to CYA in case you got called out.
    Well assumptions are risky because no one knows what they are, but I removed that risk by putting it right out front for you to see it and respond to it. It would have been more direct for me to come out and ask you instead, though.


    Quote Originally Posted by onemoretime View Post
    Don't worry, I use that one all the time.
    Use what all the time?


    Quote Originally Posted by onemoretime View Post
    Doesn't mean I don't know that it's complete bullshit, as well.
    You're an ENTP also, right?

  7. #197
    Member Affably Evil's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by onemoretime View Post
    In regard to feminism, I can understand why women can feel like men oppress them with little recourse, but I rarely see the same sort of consideration granted to my own experience, where women can make men's lives utterly miserable with little consequence.
    And you want to know why? Because women taking advantage of men in this way is not institutionalized or systematic.

    In this case, I can understand why some people feel that rape is uniquely traumatic, but I am asking you to consider that being manipulated may be uniquely traumatic to others, beyond even being forcibly raped.
    Get back to me after you've been raised in rape culture, where being taught for years and years that being raped is that most horrific thing that could possibly happen to you and your body. Get back to me after you've been forced to take self-defense classes by a parent who is worried about you getting raped, that you get lectured on how to act how to dress how to talk how to walk who to hang out with where you walk who you trust watch your drinks lock your door how to politely reject men are you with a stranger are you with a group are you wearing heels how many people have you slept with do you have a roommate who has your phone number and don't let your guard down for a moment to avoid getting raped and still get raped anyway in which case it's your own damn fault. Get back to me after you try to prosecute and hundreds of strangers are asking you about the length of your pubic hair or what you were wearing or how often you've consented to sex with other partners in the past.

    Get back to me after you're an 11-year old girl in Texas gets raped by 13 adult men and 5 boys and the neighbors only comment on your clothes. And then tell me that the experience of being romantically rejected by someone is in any way psychologically comparable.
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  8. #198
    Dreaming the life onemoretime's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Affably Evil View Post
    And you want to know why? Because women taking advantage of men in this way is not institutionalized or systematic.
    Really? Are you telling me that we don't spend the first 18 years of our lives in female-dominated institutions (i.e. schools), where shaming is a primary means of social control, and one's value as an individual is determined primarily through what a woman (i.e. the teacher) thinks of you?

    Get back to me after you've been raised in rape culture, where being taught for years and years that being raped is that most horrific thing that could possibly happen to you and your body. Get back to me after you've been forced to take self-defense classes by a parent who is worried about you getting raped, that you get lectured on how to act how to dress how to talk how to walk who to hang out with where you walk who you trust watch your drinks lock your door how to politely reject men are you with a stranger are you with a group are you wearing heels how many people have you slept with do you have a roommate who has your phone number and don't let your guard down for a moment to avoid getting raped and still get raped anyway in which case it's your own damn fault. Get back to me after you try to prosecute and hundreds of strangers are asking you about the length of your pubic hair or what you were wearing or how often you've consented to sex with other partners in the past.
    Sounds awful. I wouldn't wish that on anyone, male or female. I also wouldn't wish the emotional devastation that comes with having the finger pointed at you upon anyone.

    Get back to me after you're an 11-year old girl in Texas gets raped by 13 adult men and 5 boys and the neighbors only comment on your clothes. And then tell me that the experience of being romantically rejected by someone is in any way psychologically comparable.
    Here's where we get in trouble - "rape" is a very broad categorization, including violent acts of brutality, all the way to seemingly-consensual intercourse under the influence of drugs and alcohol. Perhaps, the comparison would be more apt with a situation like this one, where this sort of manipulation is taken to a horrifying extreme.

  9. #199
    Senior Member redcheerio's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Affably Evil View Post
    Get back to me after you're an 11-year old girl in Texas gets raped by 13 adult men and 5 boys and the neighbors only comment on your clothes. And then tell me that the experience of being romantically rejected by someone is in any way psychologically comparable.
    This part of the article really takes the cake, wowzers

    Among them is, if the allegations are proved, how could their young men have been drawn into such an act?

    “It’s just destroyed our community,” said Sheila Harrison, 48, a hospital worker who says she knows several of the defendants. “These boys have to live with this the rest of their lives.”
    Like, really, lady? That's what you got out of that story, as a female hospital worker?

  10. #200
    Senior Member NegativeZero's Avatar
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    This thread is fucking excellent.

    1) you hypnotize someone into having sex with you
    Yeah, but would they remember it?

    2) you get someone drunk so that you can manipulate them to have sex with you
    Unequivocally rape, but again, would they remember it?

    3) you have sex with someone controversially younger than you, but they consent
    Not rape unless they can't really think for themselves.

    4) you manipulate someone into having sex with you when you know they'll regret it later.
    No, but it depends on the degree of manipulation and how much the consenter initially wanted to have sex in the first place.

    5) you threaten to withdraw support for an individual if they don't have sex with you (not support that they need, like a job, money for living expenses or healthcare, but some other type of support that they can survive without)
    Not rape because it isn't forceful, merely coercive.

    6) you threaten to withdraw support that the individual does need (such as those listed above)
    This is rape because it's forceful, i.e., takes away services or things one would need.

    7) you make your spouse have sex with you after they have been witholding it from you
    Rape.

    8) someone has consented to have sex with you. you're in the middle of things and they say "stop!" and you don't
    Rape.
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