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  1. #181
    Senior Member Viridian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by onemoretime View Post
    Only if you consider physical harm to be "worse" than psychological harm. I do not.
    I didn't say one of them was worse. I do think, however, that the psychological harm caused by rape is, on average, more scarring than the one caused by romantic rejection or being the victim of psychological manipulation.

  2. #182
    Senior Member redcheerio's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by onemoretime View Post
    Only if you consider physical harm to be "worse" than psychological harm. I do not.
    No. They are different degrees of psychological harm. Viridian is calling them apples and oranges because one is so much worse and involves so much more than the other.

    Edit: I agree with Viridian and MacGuffin here.

  3. #183
    Dreaming the life onemoretime's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Viridian View Post
    I didn't say one of them was worse. I do think, however, that the psychological harm caused by rape is, on average, more scarring than the one caused by romantic rejection or being the victim of psychological manipulation.
    Quote Originally Posted by redcheerio View Post
    No. They are different degrees of psychological harm. Viridian is calling them apples and oranges because one is so much worse and involves so much more than the other.

    Edit: I agree with Viridian and MacGuffin here.
    And I say it depends on the person.

  4. #184
    Senior Member Viridian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by onemoretime View Post
    And I say it depends on the person.
    Hence the "on average" part.

  5. #185
    Dreaming the life onemoretime's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Viridian View Post
    Hence the "on average" part.
    But how could you possibly know that? You only know your own experience.

  6. #186
    Senior Member Viridian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by onemoretime View Post
    But how could you possibly know that? You only know your own experience.
    Well, I never claimed to be an expert. I have, however, read about other people's experiences, so I'm not completely blind. Mostly, though, I admit I'm hypothesizing...

  7. #187
    Dreaming the life onemoretime's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Viridian View Post
    Well, I never claimed to be an expert. I have, however, read about other people's experiences, so I'm not completely blind. Mostly, though, I admit I'm hypothesizing...
    And that's what I'm saying about these debates in general. When you shut yourself off to the possibility of another's experience as being just as valid as one's own, you're objectifying and denying them their humanity. In the case of the OP, I may not personally think that some of those actions are wrong, but I can understand how someone might feel as if they had been raped as a result of them. In regard to feminism, I can understand why women can feel like men oppress them with little recourse, but I rarely see the same sort of consideration granted to my own experience, where women can make men's lives utterly miserable with little consequence. In this case, I can understand why some people feel that rape is uniquely traumatic, but I am asking you to consider that being manipulated may be uniquely traumatic to others, beyond even being forcibly raped.

    There is no objective standard. We simply do the best we can with what we have, to make sure things stay stable enough for us to keep from going insane.

  8. #188
    Senior Member redcheerio's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by onemoretime View Post
    And that's what I'm saying about these debates in general. When you shut yourself off to the possibility of another's experience as being just as valid as one's own, you're objectifying and denying them their humanity. In the case of the OP, I may not personally think that some of those actions are wrong, but I can understand how someone might feel as if they had been raped as a result of them. In regard to feminism, I can understand why women can feel like men oppress them with little recourse, but I rarely see the same sort of consideration granted to my own experience, where women can make men's lives utterly miserable with little consequence. In this case, I can understand why some people feel that rape is uniquely traumatic, but I am asking you to consider that being manipulated may be uniquely traumatic to others, beyond even being forcibly raped.

    There is no objective standard. We simply do the best we can with what we have, to make sure things stay stable enough for us to keep from going insane.
    OK, first let me say I agree that women can be assholes to men, and men should probably be shown more empathy that way, yes.

    But to compare romantic manipulation to rape, and then play the subjectivity card, is a really weak argument.

    That's like me arguing that maybe it was harder on me to be romantically rejected by the guy I liked who led me on, than it was for you to be sodomized. It's just silly. While both of those experiences will be subjective and people will react in varying degrees, one violation is generally much more extreme than the other.

    Don't tell me you don't get that, I know you're smarter than that.

    I'm guessing you just wanted someone to acknowledge that women can be assholes to men, too. Yes, it's true.

  9. #189
    Dreaming the life onemoretime's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by redcheerio View Post
    OK, first let me say I agree that women can be assholes to men, and men should probably be shown more empathy that way, yes.

    But to compare romantic manipulation to rape, and then play the subjectivity card, is a really weak argument.
    How so?

    That's like me arguing that maybe it was harder on me to be romantically rejected by the guy I liked who led me on, than it was for you to be sodomized. It's just silly. While both of those experiences will be subjective and people will react in varying degrees, one violation is generally much more extreme than the other.
    In your opinion.

    Don't tell me you don't get that, I know you're smarter than that.
    I don't get whatever it is "that" is. I get that it might have been more devastating for you than it was for me. I get that one experience might lead a person to great sadness, but ultimately a greater resolve to never be victimized again, and the other experience might lead that person to suicide. Furthermore, it doesn't matter which trauma provoked which reaction.

    I'm guessing you just wanted someone to acknowledge that women can be assholes to men, too. Yes, it's true.
    Nope. In the words of Kierkegaard, "Once you label me, you negate me."

  10. #190
    Senior Member redcheerio's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by onemoretime View Post
    How so?

    In your opinion.

    I don't get whatever it is "that" is. I get that it might have been more devastating for you than it was for me. I get that one experience might lead a person to great sadness, but ultimately a greater resolve to never be victimized again, and the other experience might lead that person to suicide. Furthermore, it doesn't matter which trauma provoked which reaction.

    Nope. In the words of Kierkegaard, "Once you label me, you negate me."
    OK, well if you would still apply the same subjectivity standard to the gender-reversal example I gave, then I'll leave it at that. It's true that someone could be more devastated by romantic manipulation and rejection, than by the violence and extreme personal violation that rape is (including sodomy).

    But aside from differences in personal reaction, I think most people would agree that rape (including sodomy) is a far more violent and violating offense than romantic manipulation.

    And I didn't label or negate you. I guessed your motivation for the argument, but made it clear I was just guessing, ie. I was acknowledging that I could be wrong. I admit I can't read your mind.

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