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  1. #131
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    All these examples describe what happens in the scenario. So asking if it is rape is asking about something other than the scenario itself. The moral opinion of the person being asked, the law's position etc.

    The law's position is easy enough to find out from most governments, on the internet at least. A moral opinion is a complex topic in itself, but about the reactions to the scenario rather than the scenario itself. It could also be a semantic question where definitions are simply made up.

    Other than that, rape in its modern form is very new. Before the women's sufferage movement, aka first-wave feminism, a man forcing himself upon a woman was generally regarded as something closer to vandalism, if the woman's sexual purity was valued (a virgin or belonging to someone else), otherwise it was often not even seen as bad as that. There were exceptions however, but the modern conception of rape, especially from the 1970s onwards, is quite unique. It's still solidifying into culture, and thus opinions on the matter are changing rather rapidly even now. Most changes are in the direction of those nos to the OP changing into yeses. Certainly the more borderline cases would have been seen as quite acceptable and normal not many decades ago.

  2. #132
    Ghost Monkey Soul Vizconde's Avatar
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    ^I tend to disagree to a point. Even historically "rape" [ originally sexual intercourse without consent by someone other than the husband] has generally been well grounded as criminal in most western societies. Perhaps not for the same reasons as today (i.e. a woman's individual right) but more of a social concern (the village and families would have to take care of/be burdened by all the bastards from the resulting pregnancies).

    To the point were even consentual courtship could be dangerous if the village/family were not open to the idea.

    Thus under the Common Law, rape was a felony and felonies were of particular concern in the old days because they were punishable by execution.
    I redact everything I have written or will write on this forum prior to, subsequent with and or after the fact of its writing. For entertainment purposes only and not to be taken seriously nor literally.

    Quote Originally Posted by Edgar View Post
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  3. #133
    Senior Member sciski's Avatar
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    I'm curious to know if role-reversal changes any opinions:

    Would you consider yourself as having been raped (by man or woman, assuming penetration so that the 'invasive' aspect is maintained) in each scenario?
    Assume that the perpetrator (person A) is someone you would otherwise not have sex with.

    1) You 'wake up' from hypnotism to find you've had sex with person A.
    2) You wake up in the morning to find that you've had sex with person A, who spent the night getting you very drunk.
    3) You have sex with person A who is way way older than you (an exception to the rule that person A is someone you would otherwise not have sex with)
    4) You have sex with person A because they manipulated you somehow.
    5) You have sex with person A to keep the perks coming.
    6) You have sex with person A because otherwise you will die, starve, become homeless or unemployed.
    7) Your husband/wife forces you to have sex even though you haven't wanted to for ages.
    8) You start having sex with someone (with consent) and halfway through, tell them to stop. They don't.

  4. #134
    Ghost Monkey Soul Vizconde's Avatar
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    ^it seems like this revision doesn't create more objectivity but rather a bias. Its in the same vein as inserting your daughter in the position of the individual who is penetrated. It also seems to create presumption that there is no consent. Regardless my answers would be the same (i.e. depends if there was consent at the time of the act)
    I redact everything I have written or will write on this forum prior to, subsequent with and or after the fact of its writing. For entertainment purposes only and not to be taken seriously nor literally.

    Quote Originally Posted by Edgar View Post
    Spamtar - a strange combination of boorish drunkeness and erudite discussions, or what I call "an Irish academic"

  5. #135
    Senior Member sciski's Avatar
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    Hmm, I guess so, though I only used the "you" perspective because the OP used it as well. Perhaps removing "Assume that the perpetrator is someone you otherwise wouldn't have sex with" would help, though the OP implies that this is the case.

    Yes, it boils down to consent.

  6. #136
    Dreaming the life onemoretime's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MacGuffin View Post
    Several of those situations had clear consent, just something like regret afterward.
    4) Depends on what's meant by "manipulation." If it involves lies and misrepresentation, while common, it still would not constitute a cognizable agreement, and thus, no consent

    5) That's a coercive quid-pro-quo. If an employer did it, it would be illegal sexual harassment under Title VII. If it were a contract, it would be voided as formed under duress. No consent.

    Everything else seems fairly non-consensual.

  7. #137
    Ghost Monkey Soul Vizconde's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by onemoretime View Post
    4) Depends on what's meant by "manipulation." If it involves lies and misrepresentation, while common, it still would not constitute a cognizable agreement, and thus, no consent

    5) That's a coercive quid-pro-quo. If an employer did it, it would be illegal sexual harassment under Title VII. If it were a contract, it would be voided as formed under duress. No consent.

    Everything else seems fairly non-consensual.
    At least as for most western criminal jurisdiction (sexual harassment is predominantly civil where the issue of rape would be very rare extreme act ) "consent" addresses as to intent to allow or engage in the physical act itself. It not be contingent upon an inducement (absent extreme physical distress or threat of violence). Thus fraud in the inducement is not applicable when it comes to rape (although it would make a civil contract voidable). There is even case law where a false marriage, in order to have sexual relations, was deemed not to be rape.
    I redact everything I have written or will write on this forum prior to, subsequent with and or after the fact of its writing. For entertainment purposes only and not to be taken seriously nor literally.

    Quote Originally Posted by Edgar View Post
    Spamtar - a strange combination of boorish drunkeness and erudite discussions, or what I call "an Irish academic"

  8. #138
    Dreaming the life onemoretime's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by spamtar View Post
    At least as for most western criminal jurisdiction (sexual harassment is predominantly civil where the issue of rape would be very rare extreme act ) "consent" addresses as to intent to allow or engage in the physical act itself. It not be contingent upon an inducement (absent extreme physical distress or threat of violence). Thus fraud in the inducement is not applicable when it comes to rape (although it would make a civil contract voidable). There is even case law where a false marriage, in order to have sexual relations, was deemed not to be rape.
    Those were used as analogical points.

  9. #139
    RETIRED CzeCze's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Poriferan View Post
    I take this to mean that fear and offense have disabled critical thought.
    No, it means "I already know the answer to this question" but I don't feel like pretending to entertain it on 'purely philosophical grounds' because that just plays into bs IMHO. Which my Fi morals do not allow me to do. Basically, I can't politely pretend to banter ideas for posed question that I find fundamentally problematic. The question may seem neutral and benign but the playing field is not if you can see the whole arena. If someone, wait, if a group of men posed the question, "Hypothetically if your wife really wants you to beat her, is this okay?" I wouldn't even enter the convo on "philosophical grounds". The 'philosophical grounds' are bs and are coming from a privileged/skewed perspective and I would basically be stuck trying to re/define terms.

    Quote Originally Posted by Edgar View Post
    There you go with your sexism again
    Thanks pookie, I'm glad you approve.

    Do you disagree with my sentiments? Or just dodging the issue?
    I have nothing against women who use men for money or get men to spend lots of money on them. Feminine wiles have been the only viable bargaining/survival tool/social currency/option for women for many, many generations. If a man is trying to buy sex from a woman and then doesn't get it, can you really fault the woman? I don't. Next time a dood is tempted to throw money at a girl hoping her panties fly off, just remember that no woman is obligated to thank men with her body so if you still strike out you have no one to blame but yourself. If you want that kind of 'sure thing' go to a professional.
    “If you want to tell people the truth, make them laugh, otherwise they'll kill you.” ― Oscar Wilde

    "I'm outtie 5000" ― Romulux

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  10. #140
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    Quote Originally Posted by CzeCze View Post
    I have nothing against women who use men for money or get men to spend lots of money on them. Feminine wiles have been the only viable bargaining/survival tool/social currency/option for women for many, many generations. If a man is trying to buy sex from a woman and then doesn't get it, can you really fault the woman? I don't. Next time a dood is tempted to throw money at a girl hoping her panties fly off, just remember that no woman is obligated to thank men with her body so if you still strike out you have no one to blame but yourself. If you want that kind of 'sure thing' go to a professional.
    You know, men are human beings with emotions, too.

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