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Is it rape if...

Viridian

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Only if you consider physical harm to be "worse" than psychological harm. I do not.

I didn't say one of them was worse. I do think, however, that the psychological harm caused by rape is, on average, more scarring than the one caused by romantic rejection or being the victim of psychological manipulation.
 

redcheerio

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Only if you consider physical harm to be "worse" than psychological harm. I do not.

No. They are different degrees of psychological harm. Viridian is calling them apples and oranges because one is so much worse and involves so much more than the other.

Edit: I agree with Viridian and MacGuffin here.
 

onemoretime

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I didn't say one of them was worse. I do think, however, that the psychological harm caused by rape is, on average, more scarring than the one caused by romantic rejection or being the victim of psychological manipulation.

No. They are different degrees of psychological harm. Viridian is calling them apples and oranges because one is so much worse and involves so much more than the other.

Edit: I agree with Viridian and MacGuffin here.

And I say it depends on the person.
 

Viridian

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But how could you possibly know that? You only know your own experience.

Well, I never claimed to be an expert. I have, however, read about other people's experiences, so I'm not completely blind. Mostly, though, I admit I'm hypothesizing... :uwin:
 

onemoretime

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Well, I never claimed to be an expert. I have, however, read about other people's experiences, so I'm not completely blind. Mostly, though, I admit I'm hypothesizing... :uwin:

And that's what I'm saying about these debates in general. When you shut yourself off to the possibility of another's experience as being just as valid as one's own, you're objectifying and denying them their humanity. In the case of the OP, I may not personally think that some of those actions are wrong, but I can understand how someone might feel as if they had been raped as a result of them. In regard to feminism, I can understand why women can feel like men oppress them with little recourse, but I rarely see the same sort of consideration granted to my own experience, where women can make men's lives utterly miserable with little consequence. In this case, I can understand why some people feel that rape is uniquely traumatic, but I am asking you to consider that being manipulated may be uniquely traumatic to others, beyond even being forcibly raped.

There is no objective standard. We simply do the best we can with what we have, to make sure things stay stable enough for us to keep from going insane.
 

redcheerio

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And that's what I'm saying about these debates in general. When you shut yourself off to the possibility of another's experience as being just as valid as one's own, you're objectifying and denying them their humanity. In the case of the OP, I may not personally think that some of those actions are wrong, but I can understand how someone might feel as if they had been raped as a result of them. In regard to feminism, I can understand why women can feel like men oppress them with little recourse, but I rarely see the same sort of consideration granted to my own experience, where women can make men's lives utterly miserable with little consequence. In this case, I can understand why some people feel that rape is uniquely traumatic, but I am asking you to consider that being manipulated may be uniquely traumatic to others, beyond even being forcibly raped.

There is no objective standard. We simply do the best we can with what we have, to make sure things stay stable enough for us to keep from going insane.

OK, first let me say I agree that women can be assholes to men, and men should probably be shown more empathy that way, yes.

But to compare romantic manipulation to rape, and then play the subjectivity card, is a really weak argument.

That's like me arguing that maybe it was harder on me to be romantically rejected by the guy I liked who led me on, than it was for you to be sodomized. It's just silly. While both of those experiences will be subjective and people will react in varying degrees, one violation is generally much more extreme than the other.

Don't tell me you don't get that, I know you're smarter than that.

I'm guessing you just wanted someone to acknowledge that women can be assholes to men, too. Yes, it's true.
 

onemoretime

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OK, first let me say I agree that women can be assholes to men, and men should probably be shown more empathy that way, yes.

But to compare romantic manipulation to rape, and then play the subjectivity card, is a really weak argument.

How so?

That's like me arguing that maybe it was harder on me to be romantically rejected by the guy I liked who led me on, than it was for you to be sodomized. It's just silly. While both of those experiences will be subjective and people will react in varying degrees, one violation is generally much more extreme than the other.

In your opinion.

Don't tell me you don't get that, I know you're smarter than that.

I don't get whatever it is "that" is. I get that it might have been more devastating for you than it was for me. I get that one experience might lead a person to great sadness, but ultimately a greater resolve to never be victimized again, and the other experience might lead that person to suicide. Furthermore, it doesn't matter which trauma provoked which reaction.

I'm guessing you just wanted someone to acknowledge that women can be assholes to men, too. Yes, it's true.

Nope. In the words of Kierkegaard, "Once you label me, you negate me."
 

redcheerio

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How so?

In your opinion.

I don't get whatever it is "that" is. I get that it might have been more devastating for you than it was for me. I get that one experience might lead a person to great sadness, but ultimately a greater resolve to never be victimized again, and the other experience might lead that person to suicide. Furthermore, it doesn't matter which trauma provoked which reaction.

Nope. In the words of Kierkegaard, "Once you label me, you negate me."

OK, well if you would still apply the same subjectivity standard to the gender-reversal example I gave, then I'll leave it at that. It's true that someone could be more devastated by romantic manipulation and rejection, than by the violence and extreme personal violation that rape is (including sodomy).

But aside from differences in personal reaction, I think most people would agree that rape (including sodomy) is a far more violent and violating offense than romantic manipulation.

And I didn't label or negate you. I guessed your motivation for the argument, but made it clear I was just guessing, ie. I was acknowledging that I could be wrong. I admit I can't read your mind. :laugh:
 

onemoretime

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OK, well if you would still apply the same subjectivity standard to the gender-reversal example I gave, then I'll leave it at that. It's true that someone could be more devastated by romantic manipulation and rejection, than by the violence and extreme personal violation that rape is (including sodomy).

Just curious, why did you feel the need to embellish the description of rape juxtaposed with a fairly straightforward description of romantic manipulation and rejection?

But aside from differences in personal reaction, I think most people would agree that rape (including sodomy) is a far more violent and violating offense than romantic manipulation.

Most people in this country would also agree that there's a God who personally cares about their own particular well-being. Furthermore, many of those people think that anyone who disagrees with them is condemned to eternal hellfire, while rapists and manipulators can be forgiven for their sins.

Consensus may be useful, but by no means is it meaningful in any real way.

And I didn't label or negate you. I guessed your motivation for the argument, but made it clear I was just guessing, ie. I was acknowledging that I could be wrong. I admit I can't read your mind. :laugh:

That's the thing about guessing - it's sort of risky and pointless unless you know the person particularly well.
 

redcheerio

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Just curious, why did you feel the need to embellish the description of rape juxtaposed with a fairly straightforward description of romantic manipulation and rejection?

To emphasize my point that one is violent + shitty while the other is just shitty.

So would you use your same subjectivity argument in my gender-reversed scenario that I gave?


Most people in this country would also agree that there's a God who personally cares about their own particular well-being. Furthermore, many of those people think that anyone who disagrees with them is condemned to eternal hellfire, while rapists and manipulators can be forgiven for their sins.

Consensus may be useful, but by no means is it meaningful in any real way.

OK.


That's the thing about guessing - it's sort of risky and pointless unless you know the person particularly well.

Except that I was upfront about my guess, so it removed the risk and allowed you to respond as if I'd asked you directly. Next time I'll ask, how about that?
 

DiscoBiscuit

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Men and Women have equally damaging weapons with which to hurt one another.

No one has the market cornered on pain.
 

onemoretime

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To emphasize my point that one is violent + shitty while the other is just shitty.

So would you use your same subjectivity argument in my gender-reversed scenario that I gave?

You see, though, that assumes that everyone agrees that it being violent makes it worse somehow. It demonizes physical violence with respect to psychological and emotional violence.

And yes, I would use the same subjectivity argument.

Except that I was upfront about my guess, so it removed the risk and allowed you to respond as if I'd asked you directly. Next time I'll ask, how about that?

Not really - it just gave you a means to CYA in case you got called out. Don't worry, I use that one all the time. Doesn't mean I don't know that it's complete bullshit, as well.
 

redcheerio

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You see, though, that assumes that everyone agrees that it being violent makes it worse somehow. It demonizes physical violence with respect to psychological and emotional violence.

Not really, but I've already explained why I disagree. I see what you're trying to say, and that this argument is going nowhere. Let's agree to disagree.


And yes, I would use the same subjectivity argument.

OK, fair enough then.


Not really - it just gave you a means to CYA in case you got called out.

Well assumptions are risky because no one knows what they are, but I removed that risk by putting it right out front for you to see it and respond to it. It would have been more direct for me to come out and ask you instead, though.


Don't worry, I use that one all the time.

Use what all the time?


Doesn't mean I don't know that it's complete bullshit, as well.

:laugh: You're an ENTP also, right?
 

Affably Evil

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In regard to feminism, I can understand why women can feel like men oppress them with little recourse, but I rarely see the same sort of consideration granted to my own experience, where women can make men's lives utterly miserable with little consequence.

And you want to know why? Because women taking advantage of men in this way is not institutionalized or systematic.

In this case, I can understand why some people feel that rape is uniquely traumatic, but I am asking you to consider that being manipulated may be uniquely traumatic to others, beyond even being forcibly raped.

Get back to me after you've been raised in rape culture, where being taught for years and years that being raped is that most horrific thing that could possibly happen to you and your body. Get back to me after you've been forced to take self-defense classes by a parent who is worried about you getting raped, that you get lectured on how to act how to dress how to talk how to walk who to hang out with where you walk who you trust watch your drinks lock your door how to politely reject men are you with a stranger are you with a group are you wearing heels how many people have you slept with do you have a roommate who has your phone number and don't let your guard down for a moment to avoid getting raped and still get raped anyway in which case it's your own damn fault. Get back to me after you try to prosecute and hundreds of strangers are asking you about the length of your pubic hair or what you were wearing or how often you've consented to sex with other partners in the past.

Get back to me after you're an 11-year old girl in Texas gets raped by 13 adult men and 5 boys and the neighbors only comment on your clothes. And then tell me that the experience of being romantically rejected by someone is in any way psychologically comparable.
 

onemoretime

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And you want to know why? Because women taking advantage of men in this way is not institutionalized or systematic.

Really? Are you telling me that we don't spend the first 18 years of our lives in female-dominated institutions (i.e. schools), where shaming is a primary means of social control, and one's value as an individual is determined primarily through what a woman (i.e. the teacher) thinks of you?

Get back to me after you've been raised in rape culture, where being taught for years and years that being raped is that most horrific thing that could possibly happen to you and your body. Get back to me after you've been forced to take self-defense classes by a parent who is worried about you getting raped, that you get lectured on how to act how to dress how to talk how to walk who to hang out with where you walk who you trust watch your drinks lock your door how to politely reject men are you with a stranger are you with a group are you wearing heels how many people have you slept with do you have a roommate who has your phone number and don't let your guard down for a moment to avoid getting raped and still get raped anyway in which case it's your own damn fault. Get back to me after you try to prosecute and hundreds of strangers are asking you about the length of your pubic hair or what you were wearing or how often you've consented to sex with other partners in the past.

Sounds awful. I wouldn't wish that on anyone, male or female. I also wouldn't wish the emotional devastation that comes with having the finger pointed at you upon anyone.

Get back to me after you're an 11-year old girl in Texas gets raped by 13 adult men and 5 boys and the neighbors only comment on your clothes. And then tell me that the experience of being romantically rejected by someone is in any way psychologically comparable.

Here's where we get in trouble - "rape" is a very broad categorization, including violent acts of brutality, all the way to seemingly-consensual intercourse under the influence of drugs and alcohol. Perhaps, the comparison would be more apt with a situation like this one, where this sort of manipulation is taken to a horrifying extreme.
 

redcheerio

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Get back to me after you're an 11-year old girl in Texas gets raped by 13 adult men and 5 boys and the neighbors only comment on your clothes. And then tell me that the experience of being romantically rejected by someone is in any way psychologically comparable.

This part of the article really takes the cake, wowzers :shock:

Among them is, if the allegations are proved, how could their young men have been drawn into such an act?

“It’s just destroyed our community,” said Sheila Harrison, 48, a hospital worker who says she knows several of the defendants. “These boys have to live with this the rest of their lives.”

Like, really, lady? That's what you got out of that story, as a female hospital worker? :wtf:
 

NegativeZero

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This thread is fucking excellent.

1) you hypnotize someone into having sex with you
Yeah, but would they remember it?

2) you get someone drunk so that you can manipulate them to have sex with you
Unequivocally rape, but again, would they remember it?

3) you have sex with someone controversially younger than you, but they consent
Not rape unless they can't really think for themselves.

4) you manipulate someone into having sex with you when you know they'll regret it later.
No, but it depends on the degree of manipulation and how much the consenter initially wanted to have sex in the first place.

5) you threaten to withdraw support for an individual if they don't have sex with you (not support that they need, like a job, money for living expenses or healthcare, but some other type of support that they can survive without)
Not rape because it isn't forceful, merely coercive.

6) you threaten to withdraw support that the individual does need (such as those listed above)
This is rape because it's forceful, i.e., takes away services or things one would need.

7) you make your spouse have sex with you after they have been witholding it from you
Rape.

8) someone has consented to have sex with you. you're in the middle of things and they say "stop!" and you don't
Rape.
 
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