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  1. #21
    figsfiggyfigs
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jenaphor View Post
    Well, Victoria...

    Absolutely we can make decisions without the absence of values. More likely, id driven biological imperative decisions and possibly some ego tamped ones.

    In essence, your opening post sets up the premise of the destruction of the super-ego.
    I see primitive biological decision making, existing on a different plane of awareness. I'm referring to advanced, day-to-day decision making, those that surpasses the 'self-preservation level' of processing and action taking. Where self-awareness, and worth are involved; where the ego is engaged.

    You're right, in regards to my OP. I was just questioning the possibility of us existing with the absence of morality, value, and principles, and it how it would be like to live in a world without them.

  2. #22
    nee andante bechimo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by YWIR View Post
    I see primitive biological decision making, existing on a different plane of awareness. I'm referring to advanced, day-to-day decision making, those that surpasses the 'self-preservation level' of processing and action taking. Where self-awareness, and worth are involved; where the ego is engaged.

    You're right, in regards to my OP. I was just questioning the possibility of us existing with the absence of morality, value, and principles, and it how it would be like to live in a world without them.
    I'd guess that environment would define actions. If the environment has devolved to the level of necessities becoming scarce, hence the byproduct of competition becoming fierce, then id would probably dominate. If the environment has an abundance of necessities where there's leisure time to consider easing workload, then ego would be engaged more often. But then, I have to argue greed and domination, which exists today, even with limiting frameworks.

    Bottom line, we're so fucked as a species!

  3. #23

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    Quote Originally Posted by YWIR View Post
    You're right, in regards to my OP. I was just questioning the possibility of us existing with the absence of morality, value, and principles, and what it would be like to live in a world without them.
    Like I say I dont believe its possible, you can be either conscious or unconscious of the values which are guiding you or which you are exhibiting in your life. There is a choice, its one of the ironies of the cultural baggage of modern consumerism in that it encourages a contradictory view, I think because it abhors the idea of sacrifice, that you can consume without really focusing upon the choices involved, any choice will necessarily involve foregoing another or alternative choice.

  4. #24

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jenaphor View Post
    Bottom line, we're so fucked as a species!
    I'm hopeful, this is about emerging consciousness, what some people are only just discovering others have not forget entirely.

  5. #25
    nee andante bechimo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    I'm hopeful, this is about emerging consciousness, what some people are only just discovering others have not forget entirely.
    Why does this sound like more pulpit fisting moralising?

  6. #26

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jenaphor View Post
    Why does this sound like more pulpit fisting moralising?
    Because your internal filters are broken and you cant see reality.

  7. #27
    nee andante bechimo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    Because your internal filters are broken and you cant see reality.
    I should put up a poll and ask members who they think is more attached to reality, you or myself? Bet I'd kick your ass.

  8. #28
    royal member Rasofy's Avatar
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    This got me thinking about the book The Selfish Gene! Has anyone read it?
    Thing is, the effectiveness of strategies in any group dynamic game is valued according to the other ''players'' strategy. If there was a community in which every human was a sociopath, it probably wouldn't be a very sucessful one and it would end as Jenaphor described. The conclusion is that a society in which everybody has moral values would be more sucessful than a society in which no one has moral values.
    BUT it gets tricky! Thing is, in a society where about 97% are non-sociopaths, this behaviour might be very rewarding.
    So, in the end, it's relative. Sorry J's.
    -----------------

    A man builds. A parasite asks 'Where is my share?'
    A man creates. A parasite says, 'What will the neighbors think?'
    A man invents. A parasite says, 'Watch out, or you might tread on the toes of God... '


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  9. #29
    royal member Rasofy's Avatar
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    I like using macro examples but I think they can easily be applied in micro situations.
    -----------------

    A man builds. A parasite asks 'Where is my share?'
    A man creates. A parasite says, 'What will the neighbors think?'
    A man invents. A parasite says, 'Watch out, or you might tread on the toes of God... '


    -----------------

  10. #30
    Senior Member FunnyDigestion's Avatar
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    It's interesting to think about... most basic morality arises logically from socially beneficent behavior, so there's a baseline of morality that is more-or-less inherently practical, in that it ensures the well-being of "you & your fellows". & then there's a lot of corollary stuff arising from that-- or arising from associations generated by correlative imagery / behavior to that basic morality... some of this becomes broadly societal, but the higher levels of moral refinement I think are more particular to individuals, defining their inner worlds, & ultimately the variations in their behavior..

    I think abstract cultural morality, in order not to become harmful, needs to be kept simple as well as periodically renewed somehow... throughout history you can observe that as cultures become more complex, & specifically as societies are stratified into different levels of privilege stemming from social function, which eventually become fixed & dependent on one's place of birth, the morality gets skewed toward abstraction-- usually there develop classes of people who dedicate themselves to systematizing / doctrinizing morality, & then it becomes more about systems philosophy & politics... in short, I think 'morality' as an abstraction-- sometimes in individuals, but particularly in societies (& I usually see societies to an extent as macrocosms of individuals)-- is harmful the more complicated & self-enclosed, hence absolute, it is.

    /thesis
    RCUAI
    ---------
    "Man is free, but his freedom ceases when he has no faith in it."

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