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Hate or Love: Which is more powerful?

SRT

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Imagine living in a society where hate is revered and love is quashed. Are you both 100% certain that you'd still feel the same way?

No, but why would that matter? Whether or not the origin of the feeling came from society or from myself doesn't change how I feel about the topic in this moment. And I'm okay with that, because there would be no way for me to completely separate the two.
 

rav3n

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Did hate? Look, I'm of the opinion that perception counts for pretty much everything, regardless of whether or not something is objectively true. I think believing that love is a more powerful force than hate will have more positive and rewarding outcomes than the other way around. Odds are that it was a combination of the two (love of self/country/family/etc. and hate of enemy) that lead to the Axis being destroyed, but the combination would differ for every single person.
Possibly. But without hate, the defeat wouldn't have happened.

Now let's expand on the bolded. I challenge you with the same questions posed to Saturned and Giggly.
 

rav3n

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No, but why would that matter? Whether or not the origin of the feeling came from society or from myself doesn't change how I feel about the topic in this moment. And I'm okay with that, because there would be no way for me to completely separate the two.
Looks like we crossed posts. Aren't you interested in the "why"?
 

lowtech redneck

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Hate makes survival possible; love makes survival worth it.

Yin-yang, all things in moderation, for all things there is a season, etc.

Thinking of love as similar to 'social capital' (which likewise requires making oneself vulnerable in order to trust others, and emphasizing hope over fear) raises interesting questions; societies with the most 'bridging' social capital (social capital between different communities/cultures/etc) tend to have relative deficits of 'bonding' social capital (social capital within cultural communities, families, etc.), and vice versa. Does a similar thing occur with love, and what are the implications? Are love and hate inseprable from one another, and if so how can love towards close aquaintences and love toward strangers both be raised without sacrificing intensity in one for intensity in another?
 
A

Anew Leaf

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Is it personal experience or is it public perception that makes these two into positive and negative, building and draining?

Imagine living in a society where hate is revered and love is quashed. Are you both 100% certain that you'd still feel the same way?

This question reminds me of the end of 1984. He loved Big Brother.
 

SRT

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Oh yeah, this? I think it's due to not even being fully aware of what love or hate is, it's kind of a blindness, and a lack of self-awareness. A dangerous lack of self-awareness.

YES. That's the word I couldn't think of. Self-awareness. Thank you, that was going to eat me up for awhile.

Looks like we crossed posts. Aren't you interested in the "why"?

Yeah, I kinda assumed where you were going, so I answered that train of thoughts. What's the "why"?
 

Thalassa

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No, but why would that matter? Whether or not the origin of the feeling came from society or from myself doesn't change how I feel about the topic in this moment. And I'm okay with that, because there would be no way for me to completely separate the two.

I think it would still make a difference. Hate leads to destruction and death, so it wouldn't be revered in society for long because it goes against the instinct for life.

I don't think it's going to happen, objectively speaking. I do not think it's a matter of perception, it's more of the reality that the results of love and hate...well, one is sometimes beneficial to people's lives (hate can be if it preserves their particular tribe against another, for example) but love is almost always beneficial to people's lives (reproduction, family, safety in numbers, community, blah blah blah).

So, yeah, anyway, love objectively produces biologically sound results.
 

rav3n

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Yeah, I kinda assumed where you were going, so I answered that train of thoughts. What's the "why"?
It's not for me to say what the "why" is for you. If anything, I'm questioning perception and the social construct of love/hate. So I'm curious to hear everyone else's thoughts.
 
A

Anew Leaf

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Isn't Big Brother synonymous with love manifested in "for the good of all mankind"?

But we as the outsiders know that there is no love there and ultimately there is no good either.

Unless one likes being a brain washed minion. :)
 

rav3n

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But we as the outsiders know that there is no love there and ultimately there is no good either.

Unless one likes being a brain washed minion. :)
Is this reality or is it just perception based on subjective values of love/hate, autonomy/authority?
 

lowtech redneck

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Imagine living in a society where hate is revered and love is quashed. Are you both 100% certain that you'd still feel the same way?

Interesting thought experiment (and kinda reminds me of attempts to portray 'hellish' societies in the Planscape game), but I think humans are simply too physically weak (particularly as children) to perpetuate the species without copious amounts of love (and the cooperation it brings), even if only for a select few-the Hobbesian Jungle is itself a thought experiment that simply can't exist in light of human characteristics, much like utopias at the opposite extreme.
 
A

Anew Leaf

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Is this reality or is it just perception based on subjective values of love/hate, autonomy/authority?

Oh snap!

It is an opinion that I form based on my own perception from living in this world viewing that world as a kind of horrorfest. So in the ultimate objective viewpoint it is a subjective view based on what I think and feel and experience.

I think there is something inside all of us though, call it your soul or conscience, or whatever... that sees what love and hate truly are. It is up to us to have the courage to follow it if needed, or ignore it as we choose.

This is extremely intriguing, Jen. I have been trying to come up with a real world society to use as an example, and I am encountering some interesting ideas in trying to do so. I first thought of Nazi germany because that just seems to be the "go to" country for this kind of discussion. So then I widened my parameters further and thought of China. I dated a guy who was from Shanghai and he told me lots of interesting stories about his father growing up in China. The story that popped out most was when his father spoke out against the government as a student and was promptly shipped off for 3 years to go work on the railroads. I look at that and think, good for you guy! speak your mind! Because he is doing something I, as an American, admire. However, from his culture's point of view, he was being rather stupid. He endangered himself and his family for a few ideas. This isn't the same as the love/hate we are talking about, but I think a parallel could be drawn. (Perhaps not just by me in super Ne mode bouncing from idea to idea.)

Still pondering and thinking.
 

rav3n

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Interesting thought experiment (and kinda reminds me of attempts to portray 'hellish' societies in the Planscape game), but I think humans are simply too physically weak (particularly as children) to perpetuate the species without copious amounts of love (and the cooperation it brings), even if only for a select few-the Hobbesian Jungle is itself a thought experiment that simply can't exist in light of human characteristics, much like utopias at the opposite extreme.
It is a thought experiment and one IMO is worth the effort.

But thousands if not millions of children are raised without love, whether in foster homes, biological or extended family units. And yet, they too survive and some thrive.
 

Thalassa

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Interesting thought experiment (and kinda reminds me of attempts to portray 'hellish' societies in the Planscape game), but I think humans are simply too physically weak (particularly as children) to perpetuate the species without copious amounts of love (and the cooperation it brings), even if only for a select few-the Hobbesian Jungle is itself a thought experiment that simply can't exist in light of human characteristics, much like utopias at the opposite extreme.

Yes, that's what I was saying. We physically survive because of love. It's biological, not a matter of perception.
 

Thalassa

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It is a thought experiment and one IMO is worth the effort.

But thousands if not millions of children are raised without love, whether in foster homes, biological or extended family units. And yet, they too survive and some thrive.

Foster homes and extended family units raise these children as a product of love, not hate.

Hate would say "welp, let's throw them outside to starve or freeze."

Just because they might not experience "love" in the deepest parental sense, it is still the vibe of love in humanity, not hate, that even suggests we create foster homes for orphaned children.
 

rav3n

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I question perception of emotions in general, particularly the stronger ones. Are we viewing emotions in a less evolved manner when we tag good/bad, right and wrong to them, especially when considering how all emotions are natural components of being human? If we view them as manifestations of being human, where application and process are more important than the subjective perception of each emotion, wouldn't this be a more balanced way to proceed, one of acceptance?

Anyways, shit that wanders through my head!
 

Thalassa

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Pehaps you're just not giving enough credence to the ability of emotion to actually contribute in a sound, objective way to our survival. I don't think it's "less evolved" I think it's denial of part of yourself, part of what allows you to function holistically. Equal to someone who says "logic is unnecessary." Many studies have been conducted on how positive emotion contributes to not only mental health, but also to physical health, and broadening intellectual horizons.

Not unusual in someone with inferior Fi to downplay importance of emotion, but I don't think there's anything truly logical about doing so.

It's like saying we need sight but not hearing.
 
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