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  1. #31
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Helios View Post
    The historical consensus is that Jesus existed.
    Can you expand on that?
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  2. #32
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wildcat View Post
    The earliest translation of a Gospel existed in Egypt well before 50 A.D.
    It is evident the original version in Greek existed at a much earlier date.
    The academics' note that the Gospels do not allude to historical sources is absurd.
    General Ref: http://carm.org/when-were-gospels-written-and-by-whom
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  3. #33
    Senior Member Helios's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    Can you expand on that?
    There's little more to say. Questioning Jesus' existence is equivalent to questioning that smoking increases the risk of contracting lung cancer or doubting evolution. Having little knowledge of these areas, I accept in each case what the consensus of relevant experts informs me is the case.

    Still, it is easily demonstrable that the website to which the OP refers is dubious at best, and far from scholarly:


    Jesus. 1.1. No Primary Source (First-Person) Accounts of Jesus Exist
    This is unclear: what is a "primary source account", or even a "first-person account"?

    No historians of the time mention Jesus. Suetonius (65-135) does not.
    The exact dates of Suetonius' birth and death are unknown, which the author fails to acknowledge. Moreover, the dates the author provides have not been encountered by me before. Also, Suetonius isn't an historian.

    Furthermore, the author neglects to tell us that Suetonius perhaps does indeed mention Jesus:


    "Because the Jews at Rome caused continuous disturbances at the instigation of Chrestus, he [Claudius] expelled them from the city." Suet. Claudius. 25.

    The note which accompanies this in my translation (see below) reads:

    "It is generally thought that Suetonius has here confused the common slave name 'Chrestus' with 'Christus', and that the disturbances he mentions were the result of Christian missionizing among the Jewish population of Rome."

    Incidentally, I came across this some time ago, whilst reading Suetonius for his account of Claudius' reign, rather than using him as a means by which to bolster a jejune atheism.

    Tacitus mentions a Jesus, but it is likely that after a century of Christian preaching Tacitus was just reacting to these rumours, or probably talking about one of the many other Messiah's [sic] of the time.
    Thus the author needn't mention Suetonius' supposed failure to mention Jesus, for Suetonius was writing around the same time as Tacitus, and can hence also be summarily dismissed. The author also fails to tell us in what work Tacitus mentions Jesus-most likely because the author is unaware Tacitus wrote more than one work.

    I'm reluctant to continue, since, as was made clear above, my knowledge of this area is very limited. However, what is clear is that the author is certainly not engaged in an academic pursuit: like most people who rape historical inquiry, the author's only interest is in polemics and self-gratification.

    (The translation I am using is Suetonius, Rives, J.B. (contributor) and Graves, R. (translator). The Twelve Caesars. London: Penguin, 2007).


    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    I hope you've not just assumed that CARM is a reliable source for, well, anything.

  4. #34
    Senior Member ICUP's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Victor View Post
    We are able to understand the meaning of the natural world by doing experiments. But we can't understand the mytho-poetic world, or the supernatural world, by doing experiments.

    And when we disagree about the natural world, we can usually settle the matter over time by doing scientific experiments. But when we disagree about the supernatural world, or the mytho-poetic world, there are no scienfic experiments we can do to settle the issue. So disagreements about te supernatural world are intractable.
    There are underlying meanings to many of the stories in the bible. Yes, you can understand them by merely trying. It is not this monsterous, hairy, venemous ordeal the way a lot of people have made it out to be. It's just a book. And take away all of the crap surrounding it, blowing it out of proportion, changing the meanings of it, and using it for destruction, it can be meaningful. It's a book of wisdom. No more, and no less. I don't need a scientific experiment to prove to me that some of the wisdom applies to my everyday life. There are many other books of wisdom out there that I can read also, and gain something from. I don't need to prove them non-existent or non-meaningful in order to be an agnostic.

    I am not religious, and I don't consider myself a Christian. But it's not the Bible that is the problem with Christianity necessarily... it is organized religion that is screwed up.
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  5. #35
    LL P. Stewie Beorn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Victor View Post
    We are able to understand the meaning of the natural world by doing experiments. But we can't understand the mytho-poetic world, or the supernatural world, by doing experiments.
    Meaning usually includes intentionality. What is the natural world trying to convey to us?
    Take the weakest thing in you
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  6. #36
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    Here's Dr. Bart Ehrman discussing this issue with the Infidel Guy. It gets funnier as time goes by.

    [youtube="yRx0N4GF0AY"]Dr. Ehrman vs Infidel Guy p1[/youtube]
    [youtube="8SIhX4BWCPU"]Dr. Ehrman vs Infidel Guy pt2[/youtube]

  7. #37
    can't handcuff the wind Z Buck McFate's Avatar
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    For what it’s worth, Tacitus’s mention is towards the end of Book XV (#44):

    But all human efforts, all the lavish gifts of the emperor, and the propitiations of the gods, did not banish the sinister belief that the conflagration was the result of an order. Consequently, to get rid to the report, Nero fastened the guilt and inflicted the most exquisite tortures on a class hated for their abominations, called Christians by the populace. Christus, from whom the name had it’s origin, suffered the extreme penalty during the reign of Tiberius at the hands of one of our procurators, Pontius Pilatus, and a most mischievous superstition, thus checked for the moment, again broke out not only in Judaea, the first source of the evil, but even in Rome, where all things hideous and shameful from every part of the world find their center and become popular. Accordingly, an arrest was first made of all who pleaded guilty; then, upon their information, an immense multitude was convicted, not so much of the crime of firing the city, as of hatred against mankind. Mockery of every sort was added to their deaths. Covered with the skins of beasts, they were torn by dogs and perished, or were nailed to crosses, or were doomed to the flames and burnt, to serve as a nightly illumination, when daylight had expired.

    I happened to have this bookmarked in my Historians of Ancient Rome book, because it struck me as being so odd when I first read it.
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  8. #38
    LL P. Stewie Beorn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peguy View Post
    Here's Dr. Bart Ehrman discussing this issue with the Infidel Guy. It gets funnier as time goes by.

    [youtube="yRx0N4GF0AY"]Dr. Ehrman vs Infidel Guy p1[/youtube]
    [youtube="8SIhX4BWCPU"]Dr. Ehrman vs Infidel Guy pt2[/youtube]

    LOL

    I liked when he started recommending books by shoddy theologians to Ehrman.

    I stopped listening after the guy claiming Jesus never existed attacked Ehrman for making absolutist statements.
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  9. #39
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peguy View Post
    Here's Dr. Bart Ehrman discussing this issue with the Infidel Guy. It gets funnier as time goes by.
    Cool, I'll watch this tonight when I get home. I've got a few of Ehrman's books but I don't think I've seen him in video yet.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  10. #40
    & Badger, Ratty and Toad Mole's Avatar
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    Smile The Mystical Jesus

    Quote Originally Posted by Helios View Post
    The historical consensus is that Jesus existed.
    There probably was an historical Jesus but that is immaterial because it is the mytho-poetic Jesus, the mystical Jesus, the supernatual Jesus, that is the focus of Western Civilization.

    And just as we create the mytho-poetic Jesus, the mytho-poetic Jesus creates us. And what has he created?

    He has created a civilization that for the first time in human history has overcome scarcity. He has created a civilization that for the first time has abolished institutional slavery, emancipated women and protected the human rights of children.

    He has created a civilization that gave birth to the Enlightenment, science, modern medicine and liberal democracy, and even romantic love.

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