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what disturbs you?

Agent Jelly

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That's funny because after all the political science classes I've sat in and all of the research I have done I have never heard anything like that. I however have heard that true Socialism/Marxism has never been implemented or worked.
 

Unkindloving

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Chaotic amounts of noise/talking
Bestiality
Stickiness of children
Eight year olds with cellphones
Prostitots
Spiders
Artistic pretention
Excessive optimism
Adults who own an assortment of crocs
Creepy asian ghost-ladies
My fascination for other things that would typically disturb people
 

Qlip

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That's funny because after all the political science classes I've sat in and all of the research I have done I have never heard anything like that. I however have heard that true Socialism/Marxism has never been implemented or worked.

:shrug:
 

Nicodemus

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Maybe communism in its purist form has never been fully implemented. But to say it doesn't exist currently and never has existed is insane
Actually, to say that it has never existed if it has never been fully implemented is nothing but correct. If thing A does not match the intension of term X, then thing A is not part of the extension of term X. Since there has never been a thing that matched the intension of 'communism/communist country', there has never been communism/a communist country. Of course there have been attempts at implementing communism, but to intend to win and start a race does not make one a winner.

Nazi Germany, the former soviet union, the state of Iraq before bush declared war, China (currently), and maybe even Venezuela for is up for debate.
Nazi Germany, Iraq? You must be joking.
 

Helios

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Maybe communism in its purist form has never been fully implemented. But to say it doesn't exist currently and never has existed is insane and your personal opinion. Nazi Germany, the former soviet union, the state of Iraq before bush declared war, China (currently), and maybe even Venezuela for is up for debate.

None of the countries you mention were/are communist since all had/have a class system and a state/government. As I have repeatedly made clear, these notions are incompatible with Communism. I suspect you're making the same mistake as many others make, in which Socialism is conflated with Communism. The two are very much distinct.

And I wasn't insulting you, I was just giving you some much needed advice :) but I'll be the bigger person and say I'm sorry for hurting your feelings.

I'm afraid you have insulted me, in that you have implied that I am psychologically ill. Your condescension is unnecessary, and, as our exchange has demonstrated, it appears that it is not I who is in need of advice-you seem to believe that Nazi Germany was a communist state, for instance. My feelings have not been hurt since I was about 12 years old; once again, your condescension is unnecessary.
 

lowtech redneck

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Tell me, what constitutes of implementing Communism?

The only thing that Communism implies (according to its purest definition anyway) is that all property belongs to the government. But alas, we do have private property rights here, as the Chinese economy is Capitalist.

Establishing a dictatorship and appropriating all property comes to mind, just like what happened under Maoist China/the Soviet Union/North Korea, etc. The notion that these were not "pure Communist" states is nothing more than a cop-out, utopian agendas are never and can never be perfectly implemented; the agenda of these governments was explicitly Communist, and everything they did was in pursuit of specific Communist goals, which tend to require exactly the means enacted under the likes of Stalin/Mao/Il-sung/etc.

The Chinese economy is now a mixed economy rather than a Communist economy, but with too much state control to be considered a "capitalist" economy (not even 'state capitalism'). I think "heterodox" economy is the term for such economies.

As for the rest, its like I said; we seem to have drastically different interpretations of "oppression" and "disadvantaged"; the Christians are not currently as oppressed as some groups (such as the Tibetan Buddhists or the Falun Gong), in large part due to the potential international backlash among trading partners, but they are hardly free to practice their faith without unreasonable restrictions on their activities-members of illegal 'house churches' are still rounded up and given at least a slap on the wrist whenever the Communist party wishes to make a point. Also, isn't it still technically illegal for a member of the Communist party to be anything other than an atheist?

Your apologists posts seem to rest on the notion that the Chinese government isn't so bad because things are no longer as bad as they were under Mao; Tiananmen Square might not have been as horrible as the Great Leap Forward or the Cultural Revolution, but it was still an atrocity. Individuals might not be under strict totalitarian control anymore, but they are still oppressed by any reasonable standard.
 

lowtech redneck

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Jelly, not meaning to gang up here. But Helio's ideas are, as he stated, 'not controversial' and on top of that pretty much accepted by people interested in the subject and far from just being personal opinion.

Its also a sophistic cop-out, and as meaningless as saying there has never been a 'pure' democracy at anything higher than a very small, local level.
 

Mae

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It disturbs me that people try to push their beliefs onto others.
People who "need" religion disturb me.
The reasons people have for having children disturb me.
Animal cruelty disturbs me.
 

copperfish17

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Establishing a dictatorship and appropriating all property comes to mind, just like what happened under Maoist China/the Soviet Union/North Korea, etc. The notion that these were not "pure Communist" states is nothing more than a cop-out, utopian agendas are never and can never be perfectly implemented; the agenda of these governments was explicitly Communist, and everything they did was in pursuit of specific Communist goals, which tend to require exactly the means enacted under the likes of Stalin/Mao/Il-sung/etc.

Nicodemus answered this. Also, here's an appropriate analogy I can think of ATM:

Here's an orange. It looks like an apple, smells like an apple, and tastes like an apple. Is it an apple? No, it's still an orange.

The Chinese economy is now a mixed economy rather than a Communist economy, but with too much state control to be considered a "capitalist" economy (not even 'state capitalism'). I think "heterodox" economy is the term for such economies.

Controlled? How? Learn me if you will, I have never noticed any control beyond what would be the norm in America or Korea (trade barriers, tariffs etc.). There isn't much I CAN'T buy here in China.

As for the rest, its like I said; we seem to have drastically different interpretations of "oppression" and "disadvantaged"; the Christians are not currently as oppressed as some groups (such as the Tibetan Buddhists or the Falun Gong), in large part due to the potential international backlash among trading partners, but they are hardly free to practice their faith without unreasonable restrictions on their activities-members of illegal 'house churches' are still rounded up and given at least a slap on the wrist whenever the Communist party wishes to make a point. Also, isn't it still technically illegal for a member of the Communist party to be anything other than an atheist?

There were churches in virtually every city I have ever visited in China, including the poorer ones (15+)... And the church my mom goes to hosts thousands every week. With that in mind, I really can't see how Christianity's being "oppressed." I've seen Catholic masses being held in Chinese, too.

Your apologists posts seem to rest on the notion that the Chinese government isn't so bad because things are no longer as bad as they were under Mao; Tiananmen Square might not have been as horrible as the Great Leap Forward or the Cultural Revolution, but it was still an atrocity.

I don't know where you got that idea.

Individuals might not be under strict totalitarian control anymore, but they are still oppressed by any reasonable standard.

Reasonable standard as defined by whom? You? Americans?

I guess this is where we'll have to agree to disagree.
 

lowtech redneck

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Nicodemus answered this.

Controlled? How? Learn me if you will, I have never noticed any control beyond what would be the norm in America or Korea (trade barriers, tariffs etc.). There isn't much I CAN'T buy here in China.

There were churches in virtually every city I have ever visited in China, including the poorer ones (15+)... And the church my mom goes to hosts thousands every week. With that in mind, I really can't see how Christianity's being "oppressed." I've seen Catholic masses being held in Chinese, too.

I guess this is where we'll have to agree to disagree.

1.) And my response to that kind of "answer" is contained in post #67.

2.) I'm not talking about consumer commodities: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socialist_market_economy.

3.) All of which were most likely the 'registered', and thereby monitored and controlled, churches. What Christians in China have is not religious freedom, but rather broad official toleration that can be rescinded at any time, and periodically is for 'house churches' (i.e. at least half of Chinese Christians). Currently, the government simply doesn't have to be heavy-handed in order to achieve their aims.

Btw, how many open and public practioners of Falun Gong have you encountered? That's what happens in China when official toleration is rescinded.

4.) Apparently...you seem to be satisfied with very little in terms of individual liberty and political participation.
 

Orangey

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What disturbs me? Grub worms. They're a seriously nasty creature.
 

JAVO

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There's a good chance it's near lunch time where you are. I wouldn't do that.
 

JAVO

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...or would I? :devil:




[YOUTUBE="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UKc1PURJoJg"]yum![/YOUTUBE]
 

Orangey

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Yeah, I asked for it.

Made me gag ever so slightly. Good thing I skipped lunch today.

Seriously, though...why? Dear God, why?
 

Qlip

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Huh.. I guess the things that unsettle me are more existential in nature. I'm one of those people who actually find Lovecraft novels disturbing.
 

ICUP

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Ahhhh, I just thought of something else that disturbed me.....

Idiots. And people who can't see the elephant in their front yard. Denial.
 
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