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  1. #71
    Senior Member copperfish17's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lowtech redneck View Post
    Establishing a dictatorship and appropriating all property comes to mind, just like what happened under Maoist China/the Soviet Union/North Korea, etc. The notion that these were not "pure Communist" states is nothing more than a cop-out, utopian agendas are never and can never be perfectly implemented; the agenda of these governments was explicitly Communist, and everything they did was in pursuit of specific Communist goals, which tend to require exactly the means enacted under the likes of Stalin/Mao/Il-sung/etc.
    Nicodemus answered this. Also, here's an appropriate analogy I can think of ATM:

    Here's an orange. It looks like an apple, smells like an apple, and tastes like an apple. Is it an apple? No, it's still an orange.

    The Chinese economy is now a mixed economy rather than a Communist economy, but with too much state control to be considered a "capitalist" economy (not even 'state capitalism'). I think "heterodox" economy is the term for such economies.
    Controlled? How? Learn me if you will, I have never noticed any control beyond what would be the norm in America or Korea (trade barriers, tariffs etc.). There isn't much I CAN'T buy here in China.

    As for the rest, its like I said; we seem to have drastically different interpretations of "oppression" and "disadvantaged"; the Christians are not currently as oppressed as some groups (such as the Tibetan Buddhists or the Falun Gong), in large part due to the potential international backlash among trading partners, but they are hardly free to practice their faith without unreasonable restrictions on their activities-members of illegal 'house churches' are still rounded up and given at least a slap on the wrist whenever the Communist party wishes to make a point. Also, isn't it still technically illegal for a member of the Communist party to be anything other than an atheist?
    There were churches in virtually every city I have ever visited in China, including the poorer ones (15+)... And the church my mom goes to hosts thousands every week. With that in mind, I really can't see how Christianity's being "oppressed." I've seen Catholic masses being held in Chinese, too.

    Your apologists posts seem to rest on the notion that the Chinese government isn't so bad because things are no longer as bad as they were under Mao; Tiananmen Square might not have been as horrible as the Great Leap Forward or the Cultural Revolution, but it was still an atrocity.
    I don't know where you got that idea.

    Individuals might not be under strict totalitarian control anymore, but they are still oppressed by any reasonable standard.
    Reasonable standard as defined by whom? You? Americans?

    I guess this is where we'll have to agree to disagree.
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  2. #72
    Senior Member lowtech redneck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by copperfish17 View Post

    Nicodemus answered this.

    Controlled? How? Learn me if you will, I have never noticed any control beyond what would be the norm in America or Korea (trade barriers, tariffs etc.). There isn't much I CAN'T buy here in China.

    There were churches in virtually every city I have ever visited in China, including the poorer ones (15+)... And the church my mom goes to hosts thousands every week. With that in mind, I really can't see how Christianity's being "oppressed." I've seen Catholic masses being held in Chinese, too.

    I guess this is where we'll have to agree to disagree.
    1.) And my response to that kind of "answer" is contained in post #67.

    2.) I'm not talking about consumer commodities: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socialist_market_economy.

    3.) All of which were most likely the 'registered', and thereby monitored and controlled, churches. What Christians in China have is not religious freedom, but rather broad official toleration that can be rescinded at any time, and periodically is for 'house churches' (i.e. at least half of Chinese Christians). Currently, the government simply doesn't have to be heavy-handed in order to achieve their aims.

    Btw, how many open and public practioners of Falun Gong have you encountered? That's what happens in China when official toleration is rescinded.

    4.) Apparently...you seem to be satisfied with very little in terms of individual liberty and political participation.

  3. #73
    Blah Orangey's Avatar
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    What disturbs me? Grub worms. They're a seriously nasty creature.
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  4. #74
    Don't pet me. JAVO's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orangey View Post
    What disturbs me? Grub worms. They're a seriously nasty creature.
    I know of something which will disturb you worse.

  5. #75
    Blah Orangey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JAVO View Post
    I know of something which will disturb you worse.
    Pray tell.
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  6. #76
    Don't pet me. JAVO's Avatar
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    There's a good chance it's near lunch time where you are. I wouldn't do that.

  7. #77
    Don't pet me. JAVO's Avatar
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    ...or would I?




    [YOUTUBE="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UKc1PURJoJg"]yum![/YOUTUBE]

  8. #78
    Blah Orangey's Avatar
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    Yeah, I asked for it.

    Made me gag ever so slightly. Good thing I skipped lunch today.

    Seriously, though...why? Dear God, why?
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  9. #79
    Post Human Post Qlip's Avatar
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    Huh.. I guess the things that unsettle me are more existential in nature. I'm one of those people who actually find Lovecraft novels disturbing.

  10. #80
    Senior Member ICUP's Avatar
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    Ahhhh, I just thought of something else that disturbed me.....

    Idiots. And people who can't see the elephant in their front yard. Denial.
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