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  1. #61
    Senior Member Agent Jelly's Avatar
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    That's funny because after all the political science classes I've sat in and all of the research I have done I have never heard anything like that. I however have heard that true Socialism/Marxism has never been implemented or worked.

  2. #62
    Lungs & Lips Locked Unkindloving's Avatar
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    Chaotic amounts of noise/talking
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  3. #63
    Post Human Post Qlip's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Jelly View Post
    That's funny because after all the political science classes I've sat in and all of the research I have done I have never heard anything like that. I however have heard that true Socialism/Marxism has never been implemented or worked.

  4. #64
    Senior Member Nicodemus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Jelly View Post
    Maybe communism in its purist form has never been fully implemented. But to say it doesn't exist currently and never has existed is insane
    Actually, to say that it has never existed if it has never been fully implemented is nothing but correct. If thing A does not match the intension of term X, then thing A is not part of the extension of term X. Since there has never been a thing that matched the intension of 'communism/communist country', there has never been communism/a communist country. Of course there have been attempts at implementing communism, but to intend to win and start a race does not make one a winner.

    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Jelly View Post
    Nazi Germany, the former soviet union, the state of Iraq before bush declared war, China (currently), and maybe even Venezuela for is up for debate.
    Nazi Germany, Iraq? You must be joking.

  5. #65
    Senior Member Helios's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Jelly View Post
    Maybe communism in its purist form has never been fully implemented. But to say it doesn't exist currently and never has existed is insane and your personal opinion. Nazi Germany, the former soviet union, the state of Iraq before bush declared war, China (currently), and maybe even Venezuela for is up for debate.
    None of the countries you mention were/are communist since all had/have a class system and a state/government. As I have repeatedly made clear, these notions are incompatible with Communism. I suspect you're making the same mistake as many others make, in which Socialism is conflated with Communism. The two are very much distinct.

    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Jelly View Post
    And I wasn't insulting you, I was just giving you some much needed advice but I'll be the bigger person and say I'm sorry for hurting your feelings.
    I'm afraid you have insulted me, in that you have implied that I am psychologically ill. Your condescension is unnecessary, and, as our exchange has demonstrated, it appears that it is not I who is in need of advice-you seem to believe that Nazi Germany was a communist state, for instance. My feelings have not been hurt since I was about 12 years old; once again, your condescension is unnecessary.

  6. #66
    Senior Member lowtech redneck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by copperfish17 View Post
    Tell me, what constitutes of implementing Communism?

    The only thing that Communism implies (according to its purest definition anyway) is that all property belongs to the government. But alas, we do have private property rights here, as the Chinese economy is Capitalist.
    Establishing a dictatorship and appropriating all property comes to mind, just like what happened under Maoist China/the Soviet Union/North Korea, etc. The notion that these were not "pure Communist" states is nothing more than a cop-out, utopian agendas are never and can never be perfectly implemented; the agenda of these governments was explicitly Communist, and everything they did was in pursuit of specific Communist goals, which tend to require exactly the means enacted under the likes of Stalin/Mao/Il-sung/etc.

    The Chinese economy is now a mixed economy rather than a Communist economy, but with too much state control to be considered a "capitalist" economy (not even 'state capitalism'). I think "heterodox" economy is the term for such economies.

    As for the rest, its like I said; we seem to have drastically different interpretations of "oppression" and "disadvantaged"; the Christians are not currently as oppressed as some groups (such as the Tibetan Buddhists or the Falun Gong), in large part due to the potential international backlash among trading partners, but they are hardly free to practice their faith without unreasonable restrictions on their activities-members of illegal 'house churches' are still rounded up and given at least a slap on the wrist whenever the Communist party wishes to make a point. Also, isn't it still technically illegal for a member of the Communist party to be anything other than an atheist?

    Your apologists posts seem to rest on the notion that the Chinese government isn't so bad because things are no longer as bad as they were under Mao; Tiananmen Square might not have been as horrible as the Great Leap Forward or the Cultural Revolution, but it was still an atrocity. Individuals might not be under strict totalitarian control anymore, but they are still oppressed by any reasonable standard.

  7. #67
    Senior Member lowtech redneck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Qlippoth View Post
    Jelly, not meaning to gang up here. But Helio's ideas are, as he stated, 'not controversial' and on top of that pretty much accepted by people interested in the subject and far from just being personal opinion.
    Its also a sophistic cop-out, and as meaningless as saying there has never been a 'pure' democracy at anything higher than a very small, local level.

  8. #68
    Senior Member Mae's Avatar
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    It disturbs me that people try to push their beliefs onto others.
    People who "need" religion disturb me.
    The reasons people have for having children disturb me.
    Animal cruelty disturbs me.
    I got my smile from the sunshine,
    I got my tears from the rain.
    I learned to dance when I saw a tiger prance,
    And a peacock taught me to be vain.
    A little owl in a tree so high,
    He taught me how to wink my eye.
    I learned to bill and coo from a turtledove,
    And a grizzly bear taught me how to hug.
    But the guy that lived two caves from me,
    He taught me how to love.

  9. #69
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    Lack of faith.

  10. #70
    Senior Member ICUP's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Within View Post
    Lack of faith.
    Then I figure that you are disturbed by all 6's.
    ISTP 6w5 sx/sp
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