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  1. #81

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    Quote Originally Posted by fecaleagle View Post
    As for stigmata, I've never been able to bring myself to believe the stories or their point. What is the mechanism? Regardless, I just don't understand the purpose. It's obviously not mass converting people to a certain religion, so if it is divine intervention then the divine being should have been able to anticipate it's lack of reception, no?
    I dont entirely understand it either, it serves some purpose and occurs only in the saintly or devout, it is not a matter of a trick of the mind and that's why I mentioned it.

    The subatomic theorising is different from the interior or religion in the mind theorising which I believed you were talking about, I have encountered something like it in theories that humankind is the cosmos itself becoming conscious and as a result there is a possibility that because mankind exists, all other things, time etc. are possible.

    I'm a little uncomfortable with that theory because it is one of many which have man at its heart or centre rather than God, putting man at the centre just doesnt make sense to me, gravitation for instance exists whether man believes in it or has conceptualised it or not, so does an orderly universe which I believe is a pale reflection of the deity itself.

  2. #82
    Senior Member fecaleagle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    I dont entirely understand it either, it serves some purpose and occurs only in the saintly or devout, it is not a matter of a trick of the mind and that's why I mentioned it.

    The subatomic theorising is different from the interior or religion in the mind theorising which I believed you were talking about, I have encountered something like it in theories that humankind is the cosmos itself becoming conscious and as a result there is a possibility that because mankind exists, all other things, time etc. are possible.

    I'm a little uncomfortable with that theory because it is one of many which have man at its heart or centre rather than God, putting man at the centre just doesnt make sense to me, gravitation for instance exists whether man believes in it or has conceptualised it or not, so does an orderly universe which I believe is a pale reflection of the deity itself.
    I really don't know much about the stories of stigmata, but would it be possible that the body markings are self inflicted and not remembered? I have read that historically, following a beginning and progression of the possible emergence of integration between the left and right hemispheres, that some people trained themselves through religious ceremonies and practice to allow the right hemisphere to take complete dominance of their personalities. Reports (mostly from women who have less lateralization of the brain..hmm oracles and sibyls?) indicate that whatever was said or done during that hypnotic state was not relayed to conscious mind nor was it remembered by that person. So perhaps somehow one person started with the inflicting of self harm, and following reports of that it subconsciously caught on within that group or population?

    As for my attempt to integrate subatomic and interior religion, I realize that they are presented as separate and unrelated theories. I was simply proposing a novel possibility that the two could be connected on the most fundamental of levels. It would turn everything upside down, but it's still fun stuff to think about for me.

    Interesting though that you chose gravitation as your example of something completely separate from man. Going back to my previous mentioning of M theory, gravity is actually the only force (of all 4) whose elementary particle the graviton also exists in the tiny 7d universe separate from ours, instead of being trapped only in our 3 dimensional superstring membrane like photons, gluons, and W/Z bosons. I wonder if this perlexity of gravity to so many people throughout history and even today says anything about our unconscious mind. Or maybe you could've easily said light instead of gravity and I'm trying to make silly Ni connections. What if "God" is just an undiscovered force that exists or originates in a higher dimensional universe just like gravity? If not the same one, maybe something 1 step up proportionally and we just don't have the mathematics to prove it yet. What if there are actually much more than 10 spatial dimensions?

    What if the concept of God (and the implied behavior that one's belief in him entails) simply exists in our mind like the temporal lobe for instance. No particle physics involved, just basic neuroscience. Should it make much of a difference? If one has religious beliefs and upholds them, despite whether you can consider it real or a mental tricks, does the difference matter? Does it matter if the concept of God is subjective or objective?
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  3. #83

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    Quote Originally Posted by fecaleagle View Post
    Does it matter if the concept of God is subjective or objective?
    I'm going to read the entire post in a little more detail, this bit just caught my eye and I have to say yeah it matters. A lot.

  4. #84
    From the Undertow CuriousFeeling's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JAVO View Post
    Sorry if I missed this, but why do you desire rituals?
    In order to be classified as a particular religion, there is a set of rituals that goes with it. If there isn't a set of rituals associated with what you already do spiritually with existing religions, then what religion would it be classified as?

    It's more of a desire to identify my spiritual/religious niche, if this makes sense.
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    “Thoughts are the shadows of our feelings -- always darker, emptier and simpler.”
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  5. #85
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CuriousFeeling View Post
    Coriolis, thank you for your input.

    Essentially what I got to do is 1. determine what I believe deep down, and 2. which set of rituals will best match my beliefs.

    It's a bit like Luke Skywalker learning to use The Force... have to be patient in order to really grasp it.
    The ritual, or practice, doesn't really need to match your beliefs, more your aesthetic sense and to some degree your background/personal history. For example, would a natural setting, or a comfortable home, or a traditional church make you feel most relaxed/at ease/open to the divine? Do you respond to music, singing, even dance, with lots of energy? or to something quieter like chant? or to quiet, like Quaker worship? Does it help to engage all the senses - things to touch, smell, hear, taste, see; or is all this just a distraction? Are words/language an important part of ritual for you, or are actions and symbols more meaningful? Do you want to be a key participant in the ritual, or do you prefer being part of the "audience" while worship leaders do most things?

    Each of these attributes can be used in a wide variety of belief systems. I find that if my beliefs are not accepted within my faith group, I feel dishonest; but if the ritual, or worship style is unsuited to my preferences, it feels forced. When both are in agreement, it brings a sense of all being well in the (my) world.

    @ JAVO: Humans have rituals - we just do. Intentional or unintentional; religious, civic, personal; we all have sequences of actions we repeat on a daily, weekly, seasonal, or other basis that take on meaning that is somehow deeper than the sum of the individual steps and purpose. We can use this human tendency to our benefit, for spiritual development, personal comfort, and even aesthetic enjoyment.
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...

  6. #86
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    Smile The Leaving Ceremony

    The real problem is not finding a religion to belong to, but finding a religion to leave.

    For all religions have an initiation ceremony. The christians call it baptism. But no religion has a ceremony for leaveing.

    We have an initiation ceremony for marriage where we say, I do. And we have a ceremony for leaving marriange, called divorce. But no religion has a ceremony for leaving the religion.

    Indeed they are not very keen for you to leave at all and are inclined to call you an apostate, and in Islam, for instance, an apostate can be killed by any muslim.

    So why is there no ceremony for leaving any religion?

    Is it because there is no ceremony for leaving the Mafia?

  7. #87
    Senior Member Nicodemus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Victor View Post
    For all religions have an initiation ceremony. The christians call it baptism. But no religion has a ceremony for leaveing.
    I believe there is no official initiation ceremony in Islam.

  8. #88
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nicodemus View Post
    I believe there is no official initiation ceremony in Islam.
    I believe the initiation ceremony is simply saying that there is but one God and Mohammed is his prophet.

  9. #89
    Senior Member Nicodemus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Victor View Post
    I believe the initiation ceremony is simply saying that there is but one God and Mohammed is his prophet.
    Well, but to no one in particular. If that is sufficient to be called a ceremony, then there is also a leaving ceremony.

  10. #90
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nicodemus View Post
    Well, but to no one in particular. If that is sufficient to be called a ceremony, then there is also a leaving ceremony.
    Perhaps you're right.

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