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  1. #71
    Senior Member fecaleagle's Avatar
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    I find the OP very interesting. I relate to your perspective of the universe, but I feel no need to classify my beliefs. I've always been curious why most people always need to find a group to relate to, like in politics and most importantly religion. For instance, my views on "religion" are very complicated and incorporate many different types of beliefs that most people who claim a religion would call contradictory. I feel that the universe is so complex, that the chances of one religion containing fully correct beliefs is just impossible. The only way to arrive closer to a full understanding is to put the puzzle together yourself. Of course, I feel that all the understanding of the universe comes from within and is deeply tied to quantum physics.

    Anyways I think that much can be learned from one of the earliest human religions: Zoroastrianism, along with Buddhism and Taoism. And stay open to the possibility that early humans were not conscious of consciousness like we are today and much of what inspired their actions and beliefs was simply hallucinations from within, probably rooted in the right hemispheric specific collective unconscious. There is tons and tons of proof for this theory of the mind, but it has been pushed aside out of fear from religious fanatics (especially those with a vested interest in it, if you know what I mean)

    Is the need to associate with a religious group an Fe thing? Like feeling the need to fit into a social system? While Te only seeks truth even if the entire world disagrees with you?
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  2. #72
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fecaleagle View Post
    I find the OP very interesting. I relate to your perspective of the universe, but I feel no need to classify my beliefs. I've always been curious why most people always need to find a group to relate to, like in politics and most importantly religion. For instance, my views on "religion" are very complicated and incorporate many different types of beliefs that most people who claim a religion would call contradictory. I feel that the universe is so complex, that the chances of one religion containing fully correct beliefs is just impossible. The only way to arrive closer to a full understanding is to put the puzzle together yourself. Of course, I feel that all the understanding of the universe comes from within and is deeply tied to quantum physics.

    Anyways I think that much can be learned from one of the earliest human religions: Zoroastrianism, along with Buddhism and Taoism. And stay open to the possibility that early humans were not conscious of consciousness like we are today and much of what inspired their actions and beliefs was simply hallucinations from within, probably rooted in the right hemispheric specific collective unconscious. There is tons and tons of proof for this theory of the mind, but it has been pushed aside out of fear from religious fanatics (especially those with a vested interest in it, if you know what I mean)

    Is the need to associate with a religious group an Fe thing? Like feeling the need to fit into a social system? While Te only seeks truth even if the entire world disagrees with you?
    I think your dichotomy is mistaken, I am a thinker and belong to the RCC because I consider tradition and the transmission of historical learning, experience and wisdom across generations to be important and worthwhile. There is error and heaping error upon error will be bad for generations to come and a dishonour to ancestors.

    I find it interesting that you can reconcile zoroastarianism with buddhism and taoism, I have been interested in each of them but with time I've become much less enamoured with buddhism, besides some of its practical applications or the original observations of Buddha which are congruent with stoicism, taoism is interesting to but I think inferior to some of the reflections crucial to confucianism, zoroastarianism is the doctrine which I would still find relevent because it was a precursor to monotheism and judeo-christianity and my the foundation of my church.

    I've heard the theorising about the audio hallucinatory deceptions or bifurcated mind before, they did provoke a round of reflections and doubts at the time I first encountered them but not fear, unless you are talking about fear that God has abandoned humanity as a failed project. I really dont believe that its likely that God has never existed that all monotheism and theism is a by product of existential cowardice, that all appears to me to be a kind of modern conceit, every age believes it's the smartest there ever was and that its precursors were fools (to a certain extent that their legacies will be squandered by future generations of fools too).

    It is wholly important to understand the extent to which psychology, self-deception and hallucination, chemical or otherwise, have influenced the history of religion or religious experiences, because from those things errors can arise but dismissing the entire history of religious experience is reductive in extremis. There is an orderly cosmos and world despite or external to each of us, we dont create order or laws or physical rules, we observe them, so religious experience are not a mere creation which serves evolution accidentially.

    While I actually salute the first part of your post, the open mindedness and acknowledgement of complexity is fair, although I think inevitably you will find that there is one body of knowledge which is more correct than another, its like doing math, while many different sorts of equations evidence that people are close to the mark there is only one correct answer. So I think it is possible to wish to belong to a single group because it is true rather than feeling needs to belong to a group.

  3. #73
    Senior Member fecaleagle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    I think your dichotomy is mistaken, I am a thinker and belong to the RCC because I consider tradition and the transmission of historical learning, experience and wisdom across generations to be important and worthwhile. There is error and heaping error upon error will be bad for generations to come and a dishonour to ancestors.

    I find it interesting that you can reconcile zoroastarianism with buddhism and taoism, I have been interested in each of them but with time I've become much less enamoured with buddhism, besides some of its practical applications or the original observations of Buddha which are congruent with stoicism, taoism is interesting to but I think inferior to some of the reflections crucial to confucianism, zoroastarianism is the doctrine which I would still find relevent because it was a precursor to monotheism and judeo-christianity and my the foundation of my church.

    I've heard the theorising about the audio hallucinatory deceptions or bifurcated mind before, they did provoke a round of reflections and doubts at the time I first encountered them but not fear, unless you are talking about fear that God has abandoned humanity as a failed project. I really dont believe that its likely that God has never existed that all monotheism and theism is a by product of existential cowardice, that all appears to me to be a kind of modern conceit, every age believes it's the smartest there ever was and that its precursors were fools (to a certain extent that their legacies will be squandered by future generations of fools too).

    It is wholly important to understand the extent to which psychology, self-deception and hallucination, chemical or otherwise, have influenced the history of religion or religious experiences, because from those things errors can arise but dismissing the entire history of religious experience is reductive in extremis. There is an orderly cosmos and world despite or external to each of us, we dont create order or laws or physical rules, we observe them, so religious experience are not a mere creation which serves evolution accidentially.

    While I actually salute the first part of your post, the open mindedness and acknowledgement of complexity is fair, although I think inevitably you will find that there is one body of knowledge which is more correct than another, its like doing math, while many different sorts of equations evidence that people are close to the mark there is only one correct answer. So I think it is possible to wish to belong to a single group because it is true rather than feeling needs to belong to a group.
    That's cool that you've considered the possibility of a bicameral ancient human mind. I didn't mean to imply that the concept has been rejected solely based on fear, since like you many people have considered the ideas on a rational basis. I just meant that fear has prevented prolonged intellectual discussion of the issue, thus preventing many open minded people the opportunity to be exposed to the ideas.

    By the way, you mentioned auditory hallucinations but I would like to mention that visual hallucinations have been proposed as well; similar to modern schizophrenia although visualizations are more rare. The percentage of people today that experience transient hallucinations (especially auditory) is not very uncommon, so that could be possibly explained as a remnant of our early mind. So I think that this state of the mind was actually necessary for the evolution of our religious thought, and that this design may not have been simple happenstance. The guidance that these left-brained people received from their right hemisphere would have to have been inexplicable and surreal in order for the messages to have meaning and impact that they did. I think that what created modern religious thought was the incorporation of both hemispheres like we experience today. Some argue it's sudden rise triggered a need to replicate the spiritual guidance that our minds were used to receiving, thus starting the path towards prophets and organized religion. I'm not implying that these new divine messages were not real by any means, but that they required an active seeking role by people like Zoroaster, Jesus Christ, Muhammad, that may have not have existed without our abrupt gaining of consciousness.

    And as far as the organized religions, I do find Buddhism less helpful than Taoism and Zoroastrianism. I just happen to mix up aspects of Taoism and Buddhism from time to time. Zoroastrianism appeals to me as a learning tool mostly because it is the first monotheistic religion and I do not think that our creator would enlighten us repeatedly which is implied by the plethora of religions that follow, and because of the simplicity that it boils down to: good thoughts, good words, and good deeds (Ocam's Razor). I have also heard countless stories about how honest and caring modern Zoroastrians are, which says a lot to me about their spiritual understanding
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  4. #74
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    I'm not sure about the harm buddhism has done, it was at one point a warrior religion, the temples developed the martial arts and fighting styles and I understand that's for a reason and had its corrollaries or parallels in the European context when the monastaries had to fight off vikings and raiders. The monastaries were sources of soldiers for the crusades probably too but I'm not sure it was the same in contrast, at least not entirely, I dont think its because of the hegemony of the east in martial arts until the emergence of MMA either.

    There are other more spiritual reasons for believing that about buddhism but I'll not automatically assume you're interested in that on the back of what you've said about the important of temporal thoughts, words and deeds, I understand that's important but my concerns for spiritual, strictly spiritual, aspects of any faith isnt shared by everyone and I know that.

    I knew that the bicameral mind theory involved all hallucinations, although my understanding of it is that it is not simply attunement or discernment to external divine or cosmic messages and consciousness but that all hallucinations and consciousness were organic, therefore it lends itself to atheism and the possibility of any afterlife. I think its important to acknowledge that there's a possibility that both psychological and social or environmental change influenced peoples thinking and did result in delusions or illusions but that does not mean that all beliefs are erronious, I appreciate your clarification of your view.

    One thing about the "religion is all in the mind" theorising, which has been borne out in some experimentation and can be triggered with electrodes, is that it cant explain stigmata or other miraculous phenomenon in the body besides the mind and not associated with mood or cognition. Curiously there is a region of the world, an island, practicing ancestor worship or at least fear of ancestor spirits, in which researchers have all experienced bleeding and cruciform wounding, its unexplained but typical in its occurence, irrespective of any kind of religious experience or practice.

  5. #75
    Senior Member fecaleagle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    I'm not sure about the harm buddhism has done, it was at one point a warrior religion, the temples developed the martial arts and fighting styles and I understand that's for a reason and had its corrollaries or parallels in the European context when the monastaries had to fight off vikings and raiders. The monastaries were sources of soldiers for the crusades probably too but I'm not sure it was the same in contrast, at least not entirely, I dont think its because of the hegemony of the east in martial arts until the emergence of MMA either.

    There are other more spiritual reasons for believing that about buddhism but I'll not automatically assume you're interested in that on the back of what you've said about the important of temporal thoughts, words and deeds, I understand that's important but my concerns for spiritual, strictly spiritual, aspects of any faith isnt shared by everyone and I know that.

    I knew that the bicameral mind theory involved all hallucinations, although my understanding of it is that it is not simply attunement or discernment to external divine or cosmic messages and consciousness but that all hallucinations and consciousness were organic, therefore it lends itself to atheism and the possibility of any afterlife. I think its important to acknowledge that there's a possibility that both psychological and social or environmental change influenced peoples thinking and did result in delusions or illusions but that does not mean that all beliefs are erronious, I appreciate your clarification of your view.

    One thing about the "religion is all in the mind" theorising, which has been borne out in some experimentation and can be triggered with electrodes, is that it cant explain stigmata or other miraculous phenomenon in the body besides the mind and not associated with mood or cognition. Curiously there is a region of the world, an island, practicing ancestor worship or at least fear of ancestor spirits, in which researchers have all experienced bleeding and cruciform wounding, its unexplained but typical in its occurence, irrespective of any kind of religious experience or practice.
    As far as the hallucinations are concerned, I think it is possible for them to come from within and for that not to threaten religion. That is if what lies "within" happens to connect us with subatomic particles in the universe including our Creator via unknown quantum mechanisms. Experiments have shown that certain subatomic particles can be quantumly entangled across any distance and can "communicate" faster than the speed of light. Maybe we are connected and on the evolutionary path to discovering this connection with the universe and thus "God".

    I find it interesting that most organized religions look up at the sky when addressing their God. I think it's far more likely that God exist in the form of an unimaginable entity or even some sort of energy inaccessible to our 3 dimensional superstring membrane (that is, if you subscribe to M theory). God could possibly be all around each and every one of us, occupying a mind blowingly small 7 spatial dimensional universe that exists adjacent to all points on our 3 dimensional universe. So ironically, God's "size" could be on the order of Planck's length or so.

    Interestingly, when the temporal lobes of the brain are electronically stimulated, patients report feeling the presence of God "everywhere" as well as inanimate objects giving off a supernatural "vibe", which could entertrain the possibility that I just mentioned. Maybe we are evolving to a point where we will naturally be able to feel this full blown experience that electronic stimulation provides. Maybe ancient prophets had genetic mutations or direct divine intervention that allowed this.

    As for stigmata, I've never been able to bring myself to believe the stories or their point. What is the mechanism? Regardless, I just don't understand the purpose. It's obviously not mass converting people to a certain religion, so if it is divine intervention then the divine being should have been able to anticipate it's lack of reception, no?
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  6. #76
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    I think your dichotomy is mistaken, I am a thinker and belong to the RCC because I consider tradition and the transmission of historical learning, experience and wisdom across generations to be important and worthwhile. There is error and heaping error upon error will be bad for generations to come and a dishonour to ancestors.

    While I actually salute the first part of your post, the open mindedness and acknowledgement of complexity is fair, although I think inevitably you will find that there is one body of knowledge which is more correct than another, its like doing math, while many different sorts of equations evidence that people are close to the mark there is only one correct answer. So I think it is possible to wish to belong to a single group because it is true rather than feeling needs to belong to a group.
    I am a thinker, and left the RCC after finding it to be inconsistent and incredible. In my experience, it jettisoned the best of its traditions, while clutching the worst in a death grip, but that is another discussion.

    There is only one correct body of knowledge; it is reality. No one of us can learn or understand all of it in a lifetime. We can only do our best to learn what we can, as accurately as we can. We all learn in different ways, and relate more readily to different parts of this reality. It is differences like this, in the context of cultural background, that influence which groups we are drawn to.

    Quote Originally Posted by fecaleagle View Post
    Zoroastrianism appeals to me as a learning tool mostly because it is the first monotheistic religion and I do not think that our creator would enlighten us repeatedly which is implied by the plethora of religions that follow, and because of the simplicity that it boils down to: good thoughts, good words, and good deeds (Ocam's Razor). I have also heard countless stories about how honest and caring modern Zoroastrians are, which says a lot to me about their spiritual understanding
    I think God/deity does exactly that, something akin to the Bahai idea of progressive revelation. The "truth" might be unitary and divine, but human and material media and methods are used to distribute it to the people, and these vary with time and culture. One of the main points where my personal beliefs diverge from Christianity is the uniqueness of Jesus.

    Interesting discussion, both of you.
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...

  7. #77
    Senior Member Chiharu's Avatar
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    Not sure if someone already said this...

    You might consider the Baha'i faith (I had never heard of it before yesterday either lol). It emphasizes that all religions reflect one aspect of the single true God and that all humans are equal. It focuses on social concerns and promoting gender and racial equality. Believers are encouraged to mediate and pray each day... they have at least one temple on each continent... the one in India is gorgeous and looks like a lotus... that's all I remember. I'm thinking of looking into it... maybe you should too?
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  8. #78
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chiharu View Post
    You might consider the Baha'i faith (I had never heard of it before yesterday either lol). It emphasizes that all religions reflect one aspect of the single true God and that all humans are equal. It focuses on social concerns and promoting gender and racial equality. Believers are encouraged to mediate and pray each day... they have at least one temple on each continent... the one in India is gorgeous and looks like a lotus... that's all I remember. I'm thinking of looking into it... maybe you should too?
    Yes, Bahai's consider all religions to contain the same essential divine truth, but they liken this to the many editions of a textbook, culminating in the "obvious" conclusion that one should use the most recent edition. This analogy also breaks down when one considers that there is much more to learn than what is contained in books. The Bahai take on gender is interesting. Yes, male and female are considered equal, but only men can serve in the Universal House of Justice (worldwide governing body). I was also told that, if a family could not afford to educate all of its children, preference should be given to the girls because they will be mothers and therefore responsible for raising the next generation. Adoption is also treated a bit oddly. Bahai's are required to get their parents blessing before marrying, and for an adoped child, this means the biological parent, not the parent who raised them. (If parents are unknown, or deceased, the child is not held to the requirement, but I find it interesting that the parent who raised the child is given so little status.)

    Yes - look into Bahai faith. I did, and found far more in it to admire than the few criticisms I have listed above. It ultimately was not for me, but I learned much from my investigations, and still have Bahai friends who I greatly respect and enjoy.
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...

  9. #79
    From the Undertow CuriousFeeling's Avatar
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    Coriolis, thank you for your input.

    Essentially what I got to do is 1. determine what I believe deep down, and 2. which set of rituals will best match my beliefs.

    It's a bit like Luke Skywalker learning to use The Force... have to be patient in order to really grasp it.
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    ― Friedrich Nietzsche




  10. #80
    Don't pet me. JAVO's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CuriousFeeling View Post
    2. which set of rituals will best match my beliefs.
    Sorry if I missed this, but why do you desire rituals?

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