What does it mean to die?

[Qlip]

Most people live as if they don't know they will die. Why would someone not live an adventure if they think they will die and there is no afterlife? People do some boring shit and then they die. I see no logic in not thinking death at least to get the priorities in order.

Well, I can definitely see a point there. If you ask yourself 'what do I want to accomplish in life?' you're still summoning a little shadow of death to glare at you out of the corner of your eye. Motivation is good.. but I think the ideal is for people to do what fulfils them without being spured on or held back by fear. Maybe the people doing boring shit are doing exactly what they want out of life, who are we to judge?

Actually, now that I've stated a point of view I'm going to veer off and state that I essentially believe in reincarnation. It's a lot more germaine cosmology as to how I live my life, and it helps me be a more effective person.

 

[Santosha]

I believe this, except, I'm not sure what happens to that energy. Any multiple things can happen. We have a few guesses, but I'm not sure if we've even found the correct answer yet. Or maybe there are many possibilities.

You caught me after I edited =P Did you get a chance to look into the Aware Study? The results on that could be really fascinating.

 

[nolla]

Well, I can definitely see a point there. If you ask yourself 'what do I want to accomplish in life?' you're still summoning a little shadow of death to glare at you out of the corner of your eye. Motivation is good.. but I think the ideal is for people to do what fulfils them without being spured on or held back by fear. Maybe the people doing boring shit are doing exactly what they want out of life, who are we to judge?

Yeah, I do boring shit, if you look at it from a certain perspective. It's what I enjoy, so it is my adventure. But it seems to me that many people do things they wouldn't want to do if they really had given some thought to the idea that death will be the end. At least there are many people who have changed their lives after a near-death-experience.

 

[rav3n]

Once energy is created, it can not "cease to exist". It transfers, changes form.. but it does not stop. The body itself is energy. Matter=condenced energy. It disintigrates after death and eventually is recycled into a multitude of forms within existence. Your energy will continue to exist once you die.. the question is will your consciousness follow. If consciousness can only exist inside the brain, then probably not. But they are working on a few studies based on a theory that consciousness does indeed exist outside the brain. IF we can prove that consciousness exists outside the brain.. the death concept is only physical. I believe this will eventually be proven.

As human beings, we're driven by biological imperative. With this in mind, when our bodies cease to exist, how can our consciousness exist in our current conceptual whole? And if our consciousness changes to the degree where we lose our driver of biological imperative, wouldn't this arguably mean that "we" cease to exist?

 

[Eric B]

I've been wondering about this sort of thing, and I think something like the part of us that recognizes different colors might be apart from the brain. The brain picks up the different wavelengths, so it makes sense that we will pick up some sort of differentiation in the light that reaches us, but what makes them "look" exactly the way they do? There seems to be some sort of entity picking up the signals from the brain, and thus distinct from the brain.

 

[knight]

I had a friend that died 2 times. I asked him if he saw anything when he was dead. he said no.

 

[Santosha]

how can our consciousness exist in our current conceptual whole? And if our consciousness changes to the degree where we lose our driver of biological imperative, wouldn't this arguably mean that "we" cease to exist?

Well, thats the question. "it is the only major question in the sciences we don't even know how to ask."

THey have been unable to prove that consciousness is described in wholly physical terms.

This is exactly what a team of neurologists, anesthesiologists, shrinks, and various other doctors are working on in the Aware Study. This study was motivated by a few cases of near death/death and back experiencers that observed things during their operation and death that could not have been observed by the physical body. Brain waves flattened, body temp drastically reduced, blood drained, unconscious, eyes covered with med tape, etc.. that came back to tell a tale of the conversations that went on, the tools used during operation, etc. Is consciousness the aggregation of neural processes in the brain? We don't know. But more and more unexplainable events are occuring in highly monitered states.

It follows that if consciousness cannot be explained exclusively by physical events in the brain, it must transcend the capabilities of physical systems and require an explanation of nonphysical means. Apx 18% of people that come back from cardiac arrest have NDE's. I find it hard to believe that 18% percent of people that just flat lined conjur up a NDE as soon as they come back for attention purposes. Were talking almost 1 in 5 here. So its my opinion that (most) of them really believe this experience occured. Thus comes the starved oxygen argument. Problem with that is that NDers report a much stronger sense of consciousness.. highlighting a "sense that the life that had just passed was like a dream," they had woken up from. If you look at case studies, you'll find many differences in the description of ND and starved oxygen. I don't see how starved oxygen and brain chemicals can account for one seeing or hearing events that actually occured afted flat lining.

 

[rav3n]

Well, thats the question. "it is the only major question in the sciences we don't even know how to ask."

THey have been unable to prove that consciousness is described in wholly physical terms.

This is exactly what a team of neurologists, anesthesiologists, shrinks, and various other doctors are working on in the Aware Study. This study was motivated by a few cases of near death/death and back experiencers that observed things during their operation and death that could not have been observed by the physical body. Brain waves flattened, body temp drastically reduced, blood drained, unconscious, eyes covered with med tape, etc.. that came back to tell a tale of the conversations that went on, the tools used during operation, etc. Is consciousness the aggregation of neural processes in the brain? We don't know. But more and more unexplainable events are occuring in highly monitered states.

It follows that if consciousness cannot be explained exclusively by physical events in the brain, it must transcend the capabilities of physical systems and require an explanation of nonphysical means. Apx 18% of people that come back from cardiac arrest have NDE's. I find it hard to believe that 18% percent of people that just flat lined conjur up a NDE as soon as they come back for attention purposes. Were talking almost 1 in 5 here. So its my opinion that (most) of them really believe this experience occured. Thus comes the starved oxygen argument. Problem with that is that NDers report a much stronger sense of consciousness.. highlighting a "sense that the life that had just passed was like a dream," they had woken up from. If you look at case studies, you'll find many differences in the description of ND and starved oxygen. I don't see how starved oxygen and brain chemicals can account for one seeing or hearing events that actually occured afted flat lining.

Even after we flatline, our brains are still alive. It takes two minutes before parts of our brain start to shut down, until an hour later. It's no surprise considering how delicate brain chemistry is, that individuals would become delusional.

Consider delusional individuals like paranoid schizophrenics with neurochemical imbalances. Those delusions appear to be real according to the individuals experiencing them but they're not, according to observers.

But that wasn't the point I was trying to make. Our consciousness includes preprogrammed biological imperatives. Once those imperatives cease to exist, does each person as a concept, cease to exist? Does Huxley, as Huxley is defined by his consciousness right now, cease to exist? IMO, you do.

Of course this is assuming that our consciousness continues post death of our physical body (which I don't believe but are considering possibilities).

 

[Totenkindly]

I had a friend that died 2 times. I asked him if he saw anything when he was dead. he said no.

I sense a Flatliners experiment coming on...

 

[wildcat]

Sooner or later it happens to us all. Time runs out. We reach the end. Life comes to a sudden and irreversible point.

While the means differ, the conclusion is always the same - all of us will one day die.

So, what does human death mean to you? Is death simply the logical conclusion to a physical beginning - the inevitable expression of being gifted with life, or is it something else? Something more holistic - perhaps the chance to experience singularity with a creator, or for resurrection in a context entirely distinct from your previous life?

Maybe death is not necessarily oppositional to life. Maybe life and death are just instrinsic to what it means to be an organism. Death as energy reconfiguring itself towards equilibrium.


What do you believe?

You make the best questions, Night.


To know is to see.
Sight is subjective.

It is therefore the I exists only as an object of the mind.
We see a return (= reflection) of our mind. It is all we see.


Does succession move?
It stands still.
What moves?
Nothing moves.
To see is to imagine.

Does the I die?
It never was.

An object does not see an object.
I see life is a singularity.
It does not border.
It does not have a beginning or an end.

A singularity.

Is a wisdom of a person subject to the person?
The wisdom of a person is subject to wisdom.

Is a beauty of a flower subject to the flower?
The beauty of a flower is subject to beauty.

Wisdom returns to wisdom?
Beauty returns to beauty?
Life returns to life?

A singularity does not return.
It never left.

Is there life after death?
A singularity does not after.

 

[knight]

I sense a Flatliners experiment coming on...

he was in the military. he pulled a the string for his parachute and it did not open and second time he was riding in a jeep and someone drove over a mine.

 

[Santosha]

Even after we flatline, our brains are still alive. It takes two minutes before parts of our brain start to shut down, until an hour later. It's no surprise considering how delicate brain chemistry is, that individuals would become delusional.

Consider delusional individuals like paranoid schizophrenics with neurochemical imbalances. Those delusions appear to be real according to the individuals experiencing them but they're not, according to observers.

But that wasn't the point I was trying to make. Our consciousness includes preprogrammed biological imperatives. Once those imperatives cease to exist, does each person as a concept, cease to exist? Does Huxley, as Huxley is defined by his consciousness right now, cease to exist? IMO, you do.

Of course this is assuming that our consciousness continues post death of our physical body (which I don't believe but are considering possibilities).

Your getting into consciousness definitions. THe closest we've been able to define consciousness is by cognitive processing, that consciousness is a result of something similar to serial processing of the brain. Again, they have been unable to PROVE this though. By any normal definition of the concept.. no...if consciousness is defined by the state of a persons cognitive process, the continuous flow of ideas and feelings, mental responsiveness and awareness, etc. always emphasizing the mind-body link.. then no. But if we reach a point that we can prove memory and consciousness exist outside the brain, it will be re-defined. Consciousness can also be defined as self awareness, self identity. How might we distinguish ourselves from something else outside the body.. I could only speculate.

THe actual point of physical death has also not been proven.. but I agree that the body could undergo brain chemical changes, etc. right as this is happening. TO clarify, I do not understand how someone could observe things going on in an operating room while UNCONSCIOUSS, with brain waves flattened, eyes and ears blocked, accurately. Yet cases like this are emerging.

 

[Ginkgo]

, , , ;@;e , , , Y---M--M- , , ,

Majestic text giraffe spots two headed turtle prowling in the tall tall grass. Majestic text giraffe lives to see another day.

 

[Ginkgo]

You make the best questions, Night.


To know is to see.
Sight is subjective.

It is therefore the I exists only as an object of the mind.
We see a return (= reflection) of our mind. It is all we see.


Does succession move?
It stands still.
What moves?
Nothing moves.
To see is to imagine.

Does the I die?
It never was.

An object does not see an object.
I see life is a singularity.
It does not border.
It does not have a beginning or an end.

A singularity.

Is a wisdom of a person subject to the person?
The wisdom of a person is subject to wisdom.

Is a beauty of a flower subject to the flower?
The beauty of a flower is subject to beauty.

Wisdom returns to wisdom?
Beauty returns to beauty?
Life returns to life?

A singularity does not return.
It never left.

Is there life after death?
A singularity does not after.

The difference between lines and dots. Thoughtful post, as usual wildcat.

You know, I wonder what would happen if everyone made up whatever they wanted and thoroughly believed in it, rather than curtailing themselves at the thought of the unknown or the commonly taught. How happy we would all be. Yet, that may not lead to fulfillment in this life, which is what many decide to invest in, even subordinated by the treat of judgment and afterlife.

 

[wildcat]

The difference between lines and dots. Thoughtful post, as usual wildcat.

You know, I wonder what would happen if everyone made up whatever they wanted and thoroughly believed in it, rather than curtailing themselves at the thought of the unknown or the commonly taught. How happy we would all be. Yet, that may not lead to fulfillment in this life, which is what many decide to invest in, even subordinated by the treat of judgment and afterlife.

A wise point, Ginkgo.

The society would have to be altogether different.
Only you can change society.
A paradox.

 

[Saslou]

To die is just a natural progression .. I'm more interested in what happens after we 'die'.

 

[Asterion]

We die to pass on our energy to the future. Why do you think we have fossil fuels? Just think about that.

We live for the same reason. We live for the future, the more effort you put towards that goal, the better you feel. That's why we like to master things, that's why we create and build and dream. So many famous quotes tell you to go off like a firework, make an impact and an impression, but nobody ever seems to pay any attention to the rich soil beneath us that supports everything. Without nutrient rich soil, there's no trees, no greens, no life and finally, no fireworks.

So, we live to continue a wave of energy. That makes me think that a lot of actions we take and thoughts we generate are actually anomalous and due to random interferences.

 

[RDF]

I was non-existent for a hundred billion years. Then some chemicals and genes came together in a fortuitous combination and I currently exist. But in a couple decades or so the chemicals and genes will wind down and disperse, and I'll go back to being what I was before: non-existent. That's my natural state, and there's no big deal about returning to it.

I figure I was lucky enough to have a 70-year window to wake up and have some fun. So I try to make the most of it. But I was non-existent for a hundred billion years beforehand, and I'll be non-existent for a hundred billion years afterwards. C'est la vie.

 

[copperfish17]

Well... to me, to die means that my one go at life is over. I don't believe in afterlife, which actually makes me all the more eager to live a good, healthy life.

 

[Qlip]

We die all the time. You can say a snapshot of a person in a specific place and a specific time is a different entity than the snapshot of the same person in a different place and time. Different atoms, different brainshape. The only thing holds up the illusion of life is the narrative, not everything changes all at one time. Kind of the Ship of Theseus paradox, but even harder to defend the object in question as being the 'same'.