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  1. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by whatever View Post
    how are we supposed to beleive in a god who can't even follow his own religious rules? (i.e. not killing people or judging them and such)

    what are your thoughts on people who use the bible as an excuse to do bad things to other people or judge them as inferior (i.e. the Inquisition, the Crusades, the polarization of the African population due to the Hammitic myth and the enslaving of native peoples... not to mention varioius genocides and such)?

    what explains the difference between the Asshole god of the old testament and the Hippie god of the new testament?
    Yes, and why did neither Jesus nor his disciples say a word against institutional slavery?

  2. #42
    Senior Member Sanctus Iacobus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Randomnity View Post
    Trying to get past the religious metaphors -are you saying that anyone who follows rules laid out in the bible isn't a "real" Christian? That lowers the population.....dramatically. Why are you allowed to define what "christian" means for everyone, when the majority of self-professed christians would (arguably, I suppose) disagree with that definition?
    Yes it does. That is because nobody follows the rules. Nobody is perfect. Everyone needs a relationship with Jesus. Those who have a spiritual relationship with Jesus and follow Him are Christians.

  3. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by jwn86 View Post
    Yes it does. That is because nobody follows the rules. Nobody is perfect. Everyone needs a relationship with Jesus. Those who have a spiritual relationship with Jesus and follow Him are Christians.
    Please! Christianity is an institution, or a number of institutions.

    And this is inevitable as all religions are started by a charismatic individual but if they are to survive, they must institutionalise and bureaucratise. And Christianity, being the oldest living bureaucracy, has survived for two millennia. And that is the only reason you can call yourself a Christian today and answer all our questions about Christianity.

    However it should be repeated that the Q & A method is an age-old form of evangelisation.

  4. #44
    Senior Member Sanctus Iacobus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Victor View Post
    Being one of the three great Abrahamic religions, did Christianity start with God and Abraham?
    Christianity started with the creation of the universe.

    Quote Originally Posted by Victor View Post
    If God ordered Abraham to murder his son to test Abraham's obedience, is Christianity morally compromised from the very beginning?
    That depends on what you believe morality is. IMO, there wouldn't be morality without God, so obedience to God and morality are synonymous and what Abraham did was moral considering who God is.

    Quote Originally Posted by whatever View Post
    how are we supposed to beleive in a god who can't even follow his own religious rules? (i.e. not killing people or judging them and such)

    what are your thoughts on people who use the bible as an excuse to do bad things to other people or judge them as inferior (i.e. the Inquisition, the Crusades, the polarization of the African population due to the Hammitic myth and the enslaving of native peoples... not to mention varioius genocides and such)?

    what explains the difference between the Asshole god of the old testament and the Hippie god of the new testament?
    Lots of people claim to do things because "God told me to" based on a delusion or a figment of their imagination.

    God's rules are all based on obeying Him so it's not possible for them to be contradictory if you consider the heart of each matter.

    There is no difference. God in the OT poured out wrath and anger, and then demonstrated humility coming to earth as Jesus. but God's wrath was yet again poured out, this time onto Jesus, so that man would no longer need to suffer. Jesus will return at the end times in a glorified state (as God was in the O.T.) to wage war against satan. See Revelation 19:

    "I saw heaven standing open and there before me was a white horse, whose rider is called Faithful and True. With justice he judges and wages war. 12 His eyes are like blazing fire, and on his head are many crowns. He has a name written on him that no one knows but he himself. 13 He is dressed in a robe dipped in blood, and his name is the Word of God. 14 The armies of heaven were following him, riding on white horses and dressed in fine linen, white and clean. 15 Coming out of his mouth is a sharp sword with which to strike down the nations."

    Sound a little more like the O.T. God?

    Quote Originally Posted by Victor View Post
    Yes, and why did neither Jesus nor his disciples say a word against institutional slavery?
    Jesus came to set the souls of man free from the slavery of sin.


    Quote Originally Posted by Victor View Post
    Please! Christianity is an institution, or a number of institutions.

    And this is inevitable as all religions are started by a charismatic individual but if they are to survive, they must institutionalise and bureaucratise. And Christianity, being the oldest living bureaucracy, has survived for two millennia. And that is the only reason you can call yourself a Christian today and answer all our questions about Christianity.

    However it should be repeated that the Q & A method is an age-old form of evangelisation.
    I disagree but I can see this is a matter of opinion and I'd rather this not turn into a lengthy discussion. Maybe a mod could split this off onto it's own topic?

  5. #45
    Dreaming the life onemoretime's Avatar
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    This... is... AWESOME *popcorn*

  6. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by jwn86 View Post
    I disagree but I can see this is a matter of opinion and I'd rather this not turn into a lengthy discussion. Maybe a mod could split this off onto it's own topic?
    I would, but I am not sure what even to split out -- i.e., what the actual specific topic is. (Christianity as an institution?)

    So I would recommend just not discussing that direction further in this thread, and just starting a whole new thread with the OP framed the way you want, to start the ball rolling.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  7. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by jwn86 View Post
    Christianity is about Jesus, not His followers, but pastors, teachers, church elders, and leaders are judged more harshly by God. Everyone needs forgiveness, although depending on the mistakes a person has made, disqualification from or dismissal can be appropriate for these positions.

    Head knowledge vs. heart knowledge is like information vs. experience. It's a matter of knowing Jesus personally rather than just knowing about Him. God calls us to draw near to Him in heart, and to fall in love with Him.
    I've missed you...


  8. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by jwn86 View Post
    Christianity is about Jesus, not His followers, but pastors, teachers, church elders, and leaders are judged more harshly by God. Everyone needs forgiveness, although depending on the mistakes a person has made, disqualification from or dismissal can be appropriate for these positions.
    Christianity has about as much to do with Christ as Marxism has with Marx.
    IN SERIO FATVITAS.

    -τὸ γὰρ γράμμα ἀποκτέννει, τὸ δὲ πνεῦμα ζῳοποιεῖ-

  9. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by jwn86 View Post
    I don't hold a denomination and I don't consider them to be Biblical. There is only 1 true church, the church of the Holy Spirit. God's sovereignty is not separated by denominations, generations or age, nationality, races, genders, etc.

    Does your father share this opinion? I know many Christians do not. And, what are your views on baptism and communion?

  10. #50
    Senior Member Sanctus Iacobus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mad Hatter View Post
    Christianity has about as much to do with Christ as Marxism has with Marx.
    Why should any person deny themselves salvation because those who presume to follow Jesus are confused? If Christianity were about Christians (sinners who have been saved by the generosity of God) then who could be saved? Christianity is about Jesus, and when this fact is overlooked because of Christians (whether they are true Christians or not ) you are allowing themselves to be disqualified from salvation because of the very reason salvation is offered to everyone! Do not let yourself be disqualified.

    Quote Originally Posted by Qlippoth View Post
    Does your father share this opinion? I know many Christians do not. And, what are your views on baptism and communion?
    No, he doesn't. My father was free-methodist as a pastor, now he goes to a non-denominational church.

    I don't want to sound conceited, but I don't consider this an opinion, I know it to be true. The church is people... we call it the body of Christ, because Christ is no longer on earth in the flesh. Jesus' spirit, the Holy Spirit, was left behind, and lives on in the 'body' of Christ, the church. What the true church has in common is the spirit of Christ, and there is only one God and therefore one spirit. How could it be divided in order to be classified by denomination? Although, I am not entirely against denominations... they each have a unique style of worship and teaching. However, where the denominations disagree on theology, I cannot support that, because there is only one spirit of the living God, and He cannot disagree with Himself. In fact, when God makes a promise, He swears by Himself. Hopefully this makes sense.

    Baptism is a direct result of God's direction to baptize people by water. First, water, then the Holy Spirit, which is following Jesus... Jesus was baptized by John the baptist, and when He came up out of the water, the Holy Spirit descended upon Him 'like a dove'. At the end times, God says He will baptize everyone by fire, and the faith of the person in Jesus Christ will be tested.

    Reference for the above:
    1 Corinthians 3

    The Church and Its Leaders

    1 Brothers and sisters, I could not address you as people who live by the Spirit but as people who are still worldly—mere infants in Christ. 2 I gave you milk, not solid food, for you were not yet ready for it. Indeed, you are still not ready. 3 You are still worldly. For since there is jealousy and quarreling among you, are you not worldly? Are you not acting like mere humans? 4 For when one says, “I follow Paul,” and another, “I follow Apollos,” are you not mere human beings?

    5 What, after all, is Apollos? And what is Paul? Only servants, through whom you came to believe—as the Lord has assigned to each his task. 6 I planted the seed, Apollos watered it, but God has been making it grow. 7 So neither the one who plants nor the one who waters is anything, but only God, who makes things grow. 8 The one who plants and the one who waters have one purpose, and they will each be rewarded according to their own labor. 9 For we are co-workers in God’s service; you are God’s field, God’s building.

    10 By the grace God has given me, I laid a foundation as a wise builder, and someone else is building on it. But each one should build with care. 11 For no one can lay any foundation other than the one already laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12 If anyone builds on this foundation using gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay or straw, 13 their work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each person’s work. 14 If what has been built survives, the builder will receive a reward. 15 If it is burned up, the builder will suffer loss but yet will be saved—even though only as one escaping through the flames.


    Communion signifies breaking of Jesus' body and the pouring out of Jesus' blood in the new covenant between God and man. It's something the church body should do regularly to humble and refocus ourselves on the new covenant, without which we could not live again.

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