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  1. #71
    Senior Member Sanctus Iacobus's Avatar
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    My friends, did not Jesus Christ live and die on the cross? We have historical evidence of this (the Romans were excellent record-keepers). Consider it logically if you will, that Jesus Christ is the most significant person in the history of the world. Consider it logically that Jesus lived a life, perfect in every aspect.

    I invite anyone to prove me wrong on this point, that it is far more illogical to believe Jesus Christ wasn't real than to believe He was. and knowing that He is real, the question is do you believe who He says He is? and yet, we pointlessly go in circles discussing whether Jesus even existed, a well established fact.

    Again, I invite you. Consider it logically. Jesus met the requirements of hundreds of prophesies written before the period of His life and recorded in books of the Old Testament of the Bible (again, there is historical proof for this). So either Jesus is the greatest liar of all time, or the life of Jesus is a falsification and the greatest lie to be spread of all time, or a far more likely reality is this:

    The truth reveals to each man the bondage he is secretly in, and a call to trust Jesus for his or her freedom is a risk few are willing to take in exchange for the comfort-zone they've too easily settled for. Considering that Jesus is no lie, then the truth is that we have all been lied to. The grass is, in fact, greener my friends. Where is the body of Jesus? We have everyone else' body (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burial_...orld_religions) the bodies of leaders of false spirituality and even the bodies of Jesus' ancestors, but not Jesus'. That is because Jesus is alive and currently resides in the heavenly realm. It is not necessary for you to believe what I say. Believe on Jesus' name in sincerity and you will experience it yourself.

  2. #72
    No moss growing on me Giggly's Avatar
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  3. #73
    Writing... Tamske's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jwn86 View Post
    My friends, did not Jesus Christ live and die on the cross? We have historical evidence of this (the Romans were excellent record-keepers). Consider it logically if you will, that Jesus Christ is the most significant person in the history of the world. Consider it logically that Jesus lived a life, perfect in every aspect. I invite anyone to prove me wrong on this point, that it is far more illogical to believe Jesus Christ wasn't real than to believe He was.
    So we have someone who wanted to reform the Jewish belief system. A cult leader, who has been sentenced to death. Don't get me wrong, I have a high respect for Jesus. He revolted against the belief that illness or a handicap were your fault/sin and a sign that you made God angry. That's a thing nobody believes in anymore - at least not explicitly. Jesus introduced the concept of forgiving. He did good work there.
    and knowing that He is real, the question is do you believe who He says He is? and yet, we pointlessly go in circles discussing whether Jesus even existed, a well established fact.
    Again, I invite you. Consider it logically. Jesus met the requirements of hundreds of prophesies written before the period of His life and recorded in books of the Old Testament of the Bible (again, there is historical proof for this).
    It is very easy to meet the requirements of those prophecies. Especially if you only have to be born out of a "young woman" and not a "virgin". Moreover, even if that "virgin" is a requirement, remember that lots of people wanted a Messiah. It's easy to see signs fulfilled, especially with hindsight. Jesus meant a lot to those people, so he had to be the prophesized one.
    Also, (and this, too, is historical fact) there were hundreds of cult leaders calling themselves the Messiah at Jesus' time. There were military leaders (the Jews believed the Messiah would deliver them from the Romans), there were religious leaders, and everything in between. Jesus got lucky. His cult was the one that survived and somehow became popular.
    Compare with singers this day. Lots of people sing well and have great ideas and everything, and yet the only names known are the "winners". Popularity is self-propagating.
    So either Jesus is the greatest liar of all time, or the life of Jesus is a falsification and the greatest lie to be spread of all time, or a far more likely reality is this:
    Neither. Jesus himself probably believed he was the Messiah and more than a mere human.
    The truth reveals to each man the bondage he is secretly in, and a call to trust Jesus for his or her freedom is a risk few are willing to take in exchange for the comfort-zone they've too easily settled for. Considering that Jesus is no lie, then the truth is that we have all been lied to. The grass is, in fact, greener my friends. Where is the body of Jesus? We have everyone else' body (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burial_...orld_religions) the bodies of leaders of false spirituality and even the bodies of Jesus' ancestors, but not Jesus'. That is because Jesus is alive and currently resides in the heavenly realm. It is not necessary for you to believe what I say. Believe on Jesus' name in sincerity and you will experience it yourself.
    I tried this for twenty-five years, but it didn't work. Why are all miracles we know about so long ago?

    God surely loses his power. From shaping a whole earth out of nothing, he already needs a rib as raw material to shape a woman. From letting all people talk different languages to prevent them building a tower and reach heaven, he even doesn't manage to shoot our International Space Center out of space. In Jesus' time, he resurrected dead people, and now people call it a miracle if a team of surgeons succesfully perform a heart operation. It's the surgeons you have to thank for that, not God!

    You ask me what's more likely? I'll respond with a similar question. What's more likely?
    (1) There is a powerful and good god, who wishes you to know him, but yet he reveals himself only to people who believe already in him.
    or
    (2) There is no god. Humans overinterpret random things, believing they aren't random but either a gift from god (if they are lucky) or a warning from god (if they are unlucky).

    If I want someone to believe I exist, I would go to him and show myself. I would show I'm a human by doing things humans can do. I guess that's quite convincing.
    So, God, come and show yourself, do things that only a god can do. I won't believe you are all-powerful until you, let's say, whisk away the EHEC bacteria which is taking the lives from innocent human beings right now. And while you're at it, please get rid of AIDS too. An all-powerful god like you can do better than that if you want to punish the guilty people.
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  4. #74
    Senior Member Nicodemus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zang View Post
    Then what am I?
    Presumptuous and quaint. Certainly far from perfect emotional harmony.

  5. #75
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    The entertainment value of this thread is rising by the minute.
    The good life is one inspired by love and guided by knowledge. Neither love without knowledge, nor knowledge without love can produce a good life. - Bertrand Russell
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  6. #76
    Senior Member Sanctus Iacobus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tamske View Post
    If I want someone to believe I exist, I would go to him and show myself. I would show I'm a human by doing things humans can do. I guess that's quite convincing.
    I've heard this before from atheists, and the fundamental problem with this thinking is that part "If I were God, I would..." God is known to do things that clearly demonstrate His Lordship and ability to do whatever He pleases... like telling His prophet to cook food for himself for over a year using human feces and such. I think the underlying point is that God is God and frankly never has to prove it to anyone. He does all that He pleases. As unfair as this sounds, it actually makes more sense than using a human being as a reference point for justice.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tamske View Post
    So, God, come and show yourself, do things that only a god can do. I won't believe you are all-powerful until you, let's say, whisk away the EHEC bacteria which is taking the lives from innocent human beings right now. And while you're at it, please get rid of AIDS too. An all-powerful god like you can do better than that if you want to punish the guilty people.
    Then Jesus was led by the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted[a] by the devil. After fasting forty days and forty nights, he was hungry. Satan came to him and said, “If you are the Son of God, tell these stones to become bread.”
    Jesus answered, “It is written: ‘Man shall not live on bread alone, but on every word that comes from the mouth of God.’"
    Then the devil took him to the holy city and had him stand on the highest point of the temple. “If you are the Son of God,” he said, “throw yourself down. For it is written:

    “‘He will command his angels concerning you,
    and they will lift you up in their hands,
    so that you will not strike your foot against a stone.’[c]”

    7 Jesus answered him, “It is also written: ‘Do not put the Lord your God to the test.’"

  7. #77
    Superwoman Red Herring's Avatar
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    The good life is one inspired by love and guided by knowledge. Neither love without knowledge, nor knowledge without love can produce a good life. - Bertrand Russell
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  8. #78
    Writing... Tamske's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jwn86 View Post
    I've heard this before from atheists, and the fundamental problem with this thinking is that part "If I were God, I would..." God is known to do things that clearly demonstrate His Lordship and ability to do whatever He pleases... like telling His prophet to cook food for himself for over a year using human feces and such. I think the underlying point is that God is God and frankly never has to prove it to anyone. He does all that He pleases. As unfair as this sounds, it actually makes more sense than using a human being as a reference point for justice.
    It makes more sense to use a perfect god as reference than an imperfect human... only if there is a god in the first place!
    In which god do I have to believe, if I have to believe in one?
    Which reference do I have to use? Which ethical standards? God - if there is one - really leaves us in the dark.
    You're trying to put God above all question, fair enough, but don't claim that's a logical argument. It isn't. It's an order: "you can't question God because he says so!" or actually: "you can't question God because I say he says so!"
    Why shouldn't I question your authority? After all, you're a human just like I am. If you aren't, please PM me and tell me what's inside a black hole.

    Then Jesus was led by the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted[a] by the devil. After fasting forty days and forty nights, he was hungry. Satan came to him and said, “If you are the Son of God, tell these stones to become bread.”
    Jesus answered, “It is written: ‘Man shall not live on bread alone, but on every word that comes from the mouth of God.’"
    Then the devil took him to the holy city and had him stand on the highest point of the temple. “If you are the Son of God,” he said, “throw yourself down. For it is written:

    “‘He will command his angels concerning you,
    and they will lift you up in their hands,
    so that you will not strike your foot against a stone.’[c]”

    7 Jesus answered him, “It is also written: ‘Do not put the Lord your God to the test.’"
    Why shouldn't I question the Bible? It's a book. There are lots of unbelievable things written in it.
    There's the sun holding back so the Israelites can finish their battle.
    There is a flood covering the whole Earth and a ship holding all animals for forty days, never mind food for them or the genetic problems it would cause if you have to breed from only two specimens.
    There is a man who dies and comes back to life again.

    Do you believe all of this? If not, which criterium do you use to believe some of it and other things not?

    Which criterium, other than the circular "it's in the Bible", should I use to choose between the Bible, the Quran, the Bravagad-Gita, the God Delusion? All of these books have been written by (one or more) imperfect human beings. Except for the God Delusion, all of them claim to have been inspired by a god. Which religion should I adhere? How do I choose? I WANT to do good, you know, I want to do God's will. I just don't want to do the will of a false god - I guess God wouldn't like that, either. I don't want to spend all my energy trying to be a good Christian and then see that I actually should have been a good Muslim.
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  9. #79
    Post Human Post Qlip's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jwn86 View Post
    I've heard this before from atheists, and the fundamental problem with this thinking is that part "If I were God, I would..." God is known to do things that clearly demonstrate His Lordship and ability to do whatever He pleases... like telling His prophet to cook food for himself for over a year using human feces and such. I think the underlying point is that God is God and frankly never has to prove it to anyone. He does all that He pleases. As unfair as this sounds, it actually makes more sense than using a human being as a reference point for justice.
    This is always enough for me to reject fundamentalism. What we have is a supposed God who:

    1. Created people with the ability to tell right from wrong, and the ability to reason and understand.
    2. Acts in a manner contrary from what we naturally know is right and wrong, and contrary to reason.

    Even if you could prove that such a diety actually exists, I'd still deny him.

  10. #80
    Senior Member Zangetshumody's Avatar
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    Not one person has quoted my rebuttal post, which is interesting as its on the first page and rebuts the first cause needs a cause etc. Nicodemus its wonderful how you manage to vomit your 5 proclivities without combating any of my substance, your prejudice does not make you above an argument that you have proven on vent you have no ability to refute. Your condescending posits are presumptuous, it is interesting all of my detractors have not entered the arena, it is easy to comment rather than refute.
    Escape powerful genjitsu by averting your gaze from the eyes.

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