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  1. #21
    morose bourgeoisie
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    Quote Originally Posted by jwn86 View Post


    It is said that the 'fear' (reverence) of God is the beginning of wisdom. I'd like to personally add that the beginning of the reverence of God is realizing that beyond God there is no greater being. It can be a challenge to wrap one's head and heart around, I think because God is the only one this applies to, and everything else we're used to functions in some kind of hierarchy where there is something above as well as below. With God there is nothing 'above', and all things are below.

    At first, this can be a terrifying thing to accept, but the truth is God is a Creator, not a destroyer, and at that, a Creator that loves His creation with such a love that He gave His begotten son. Know any fathers who would allow their children to die for you? So on one hand, God is the only one in which we ought to fear, and yet if we believe on His Son we can come before God without fear of destruction.
    Did Vishnu have a son? I wasn't aware of that. Zeus had several.
    So which infinite being are you refering to? which is the true god? Your explanations so far are quite finite, and reliant on time and place...
    Needing explanations can be seen as a form of fear. accepting that you just don't (and may never be able to) know may feel uncomfortable, but is closer to the truth than the escape valve of the sentient god concept.

  2. #22
    Senior Member Sanctus Iacobus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tinker683 View Post
    Indeedy there is, since more often than not the words themselves don't have any meaning or comprehension. The three infinite you gave are wonderful examples.

    How do you know all of this? What is your criteria for making this determination?
    Personal experience, relative objectivity, and historical comparison. My personal experience is that I tend to see God as a kind of alien lifeforms, who is very far away and very different. It took a revelation for me to realize that God is a living being, and that what He wants most is an active relationship with every person. So the question isn't what is God, but who? and what are this person's qualities?

    God is indeed a person who thinks, feels, and acts. God is also a personal God who is relationship oriented. This should be easily recognizable because humans are made in the likeness (think "I want to be like ___!") of God. However, God is different in the sense that He is the essence of the good human qualities. For instance, I was just recently watching Youtube videos of the world's strongest man... our vocabulary is hierarchal, with words like strong, stronger, strongest. God, however, does not fit into our finite hierarchy. God, on the other hand, is strength.

    If you ever go to church and look closely at the words of the songs they sing, it says things like "The Lord is my strength". So, God is strength, and to trust and rely on God in a relationship-sense means God, the essence of strength, is what you use as strength rather than your own.

    Quote Originally Posted by nebbykoo View Post
    So which infinite being are you refering to? which is the true god? Your explanations so far are quite finite, and reliant on time and place...
    That's a matter of belief. Jesus is the true God, and I know this because I know Jesus. However, people believe others are God... Buddhists believe Buddha was god, Islam believes Muhammad was god, etc. I need to point out, though, that Jesus was the only man to claim He was God, none of the others ever made such a claim. So Jesus is either telling the truth and in-fact Himself God, or the greatest liar of all time. The question is, who do you believe? Jesus? Buddha? Muhammad? Nobody? Yourself?

  3. #23
    Post Human Post Qlip's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jwn86 View Post
    That's a matter of belief. Jesus is the true God, and I know this because I know Jesus. However, people believe others are God... Buddhists believe Buddha was god, Islam believes Muhammad was god, etc. I need to point out, though, that Jesus was the only man to claim He was God, none of the others ever made such a claim. So Jesus is either telling the truth and in-fact Himself God, or the greatest liar of all time. The question is, who do you believe? Jesus? Buddha? Muhammad? Nobody? Yourself?
    Ummm.. I see where you're trying to go.. but I just can't let it go.. Buddhists do not believe Buddha was God and Muslims don't believe Muhammad is God, only his prophet.

  4. #24
    Senior Member Sanctus Iacobus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Qlippoth View Post
    Ummm.. I see where you're trying to go.. but I just can't let it go.. Buddhists do not believe Buddha was God and Muslims don't believe Muhammad is God, only his prophet.
    That's right... actually Buddhists don't believe in God. However, followers worship these people... it's more or less the same thing.

  5. #25

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    Quote Originally Posted by jwn86 View Post
    That's right... actually Buddhists don't believe in God. However, followers worship these people... it's more or less the same thing.
    I dont believe they do, I studied the buddhist faith, its not for me but it interests me all the same being a spirituality, one which even in some schools has a cosmology and supernatural order and afterlife, but which is Godless (in no prejorative sense).

    It would be right to say that Buddha is revered, or that Mohammed for muslims is revered, but that is different entirely from worshipped. You could as easily, and as mistakenly, suggest that Martin Luther, John Calvin, Munster, Wesley or Knox were worshipped by Protestants and the congregation of saints worshipped by RCC followers. To their respective followers these individuals are considered enlightened, teachers and truthsayers but that's it. Perhaps they believe that invoking their names or teachings will facilitate their intervention or intercession but that's more an individual thing I would suggest.

  6. #26
    Senior Member Nicodemus's Avatar
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    Still not convincing, Zang.

  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Qlippoth View Post
    Buddhists do not believe Buddha was God
    Meh....it can depend on which form of Buddhism you're talking about.

  8. #28
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    I'm actually one of the few on the board that isn't annoyed by this type of conversation. But the problem in this whole 'debate' is it's just the archtypical example of the worst unresolvable argument that can exist. We're discussing things that are ultimately subjective (though important), using terms and definitions on which nobody agrees on, with each point of view rooted in a world-view. And, world-views are never changed with rational arguments. Okay, that might be a strong claim, but that's an argument for another thread if you don't agree.

  9. #29

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    Quote Originally Posted by Qlippoth View Post
    I'm actually one of the few on the board that isn't annoyed by this type of conversation. But the problem in this whole 'debate' is it's just the archtypical example of the worst unresolvable argument that can exist. We're discussing things that are ultimately subjective (though important), using terms and definitions on which nobody agrees on, with each point of view rooted in a world-view. And, world-views are never changed with rational arguments. Okay, that might be a strong claim, but that's an argument for another thread if you don't agree.
    Perhaps.

    There are filters and blinkers at work in most threads and on most topics, religion I dont believe is entirely rational or logical, its more hoilistic a concept and means of conceptualising than all that, but I do think these sorts of threads are worthwhile and can influence my opinions. I'd not expect anyones worldview to be changed by them but perhaps it could spark an interest and they'll go and read up on the topic.

    Is there really a variety of buddhism which has deified buddha? I find that harder to believe, although mind you one of the only sources I've read on the topic, away from the pop publishing and dali lama press, is an older "religion of the samuari" book which was free for kindle and which suggested that buddhism was a sort of spirituality for athiests without even the concepts of karma, rebirth/cycle or nirvana/enlightenment, at least in the "higher" form (it suggesting there were two seperate forms).

    The cycle of birth and death in buddhism is interesting to me because it seems like purgatory in my understanding of the idea, however the idea of steapping of the cycle of birth and death into a state in which personal survival or personality does not exist and there is no God is something akin to oblivion and hell in my reckoning. I dont mean that in any prejorative sense either, its just observations of what it all means to me and I can honestly say that in my own understanding it would be entirely possible for that to have objective reality alongside that which I believe of this life and the next.

  10. #30
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    God and Geography

    God was plausible when we lived in limited geographical areas, but now we find that each geographical area has its own God.

    So it is implausible to believe in a God or Gods limited by geography.

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